Inside Australia's First Accredited Digital Engineering Diploma with Bryan Tay From Pivodel

Andrea Ciaffi

Hi, Brian. Hi, Dean. Welcome to the Digital Construction Podcast.

Bryan Tay

Hey, hey Andrea, good to see you.

Dean Sherwell

Hey, Andrea, how are you?

Andrea Ciaffi

In this episode, we sit down with Brian Tay, Director at Pivotel, and Dean Sherwell, Manager of Commercial Partnership from TAFE Queensland. Together, they have spent the last 12 months bringing Australia's first national accredited Advanced Diploma of Digital Engineering. A qualification decided for engineering, construction, and asset management professional who are looking to strengthen and demonstrate their digital engineering capability through recognized credentials.

Andrea Ciaffi

Brian left structure engineering to pursue a career in digital engineering, and he built the educational pathway he wishes he wished existed when he started his career. Dean has spent his career connecting industry and education and now dedicates his time to bringing together professional industry aligned training and the right delivery partners to deliver cutting edge qualification to for the future of the workforce.

Andrea Ciaffi

I'm very excited for this episode, and I think a good way to start is to talk about the vision and how Brian started in this journey. Brian, you had a clear career path in structure engineering as a chartered professional engineer. What specifically made you decide to move into digital engineering?

Bryan Tay

Thanks, Andrea. It was a tricky one. I saw, I think, what it all began when I saw an opportunity to learn more about the industry. I realized that structural engineering was very focused on certain functions. of a structure. And I always wondered, like, why?

Bryan Tay

Why was I designing a base plate? Why did it matter? Then it led to, why is this structure being designed the way it is? And then it led into, why is this structure being placed at this particular location? Why do we galvanize the entire structure?

Bryan Tay

And I think... It came to a point where I realized digital engineering gave me the opportunity to answer those questions because it gave me like a macro view of what motivated some of these decisions and also what motivated certain organizations to actually request for those functions or aspects to be designed.

Bryan Tay

So In summary... That build that interest. The interest became an obsession. And I realized how much value digital engineering could bring to the industry as a whole. So hopefully that's a great way to sum up the journey that I've taken right from the start.

Bryan Tay

So yeah, thanks, Andrea.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's a good point. And, you know, many people sometimes have some frustration about processes or situations they don't like. And we often think somebody should really fix this, right? But you decide to say,

Bryan Tay

Mhm.

Andrea Ciaffi

no, I'm going to fix this. But what was the moment when this Frustration became a decision for you.

Bryan Tay

That's how all great decisions start, isn't it, Andrea? A huge amount of frustration. Over the years, I'd say working as a digital engineer and then a digital engineering manager, and then more recently leading a digital engineering team, it really hit me that Digital engineering couldn't be fully realized unless the entire industry moved together.

Bryan Tay

So in summary, not a single person or a single project or an organization can solve it alone. And that was a moment where frustration became a decision because I realized I wanted to contribute more broadly to an industry or to the industry and not just within like an individual project that, you know, one of the companies may have won.

Bryan Tay

So that kind of led me to joining Pivotal. And it's, well, Pivotale is a collective and a community of industry professionals. And we're focused on sharing practical and real world knowledge through formal training, technical papers, and potentially in future, something to look out for is to actually have a community.

Bryan Tay

where knowledge can be shared. So truly the vision of Pivotel is to inspire that future generation of professionals while establishing digital engineering as a trusted and recognized career pathway across the industry. That's definitely something I connected with and that's how I started saying, "I'm gonna fix this."

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's great. And what I like about Pivotal is that it's not just Brian and the Pivotal team, it's the community that you guys are building, which is something I really like. And the opportunity to work together with industry professionals and mentors to bring together this advanced diploma and in general help the industry.

Andrea Ciaffi

progress. But Dean, I want to ask you, like you work at TAFE Queensland and you've seen plenty of industry partnership proposals come together, but what made you want to back the Advanced Diploma of Digital Engineering?

Dean Sherwell

Thanks, Andrea. It's always exciting, and part of the exciting part of my job is... Everything that I work on in this industry partnership space is everything that we don't currently do. So that's the exciting part about it.

Dean Sherwell

So you get to learn an area or understand an area where you're not necessarily, you know, have that much knowledge and then delve into that to see where you can really work in partnership. And it's been an absolute pleasure to work with the team at Pivotal to be able to understand their passion, realise the need, and then translate that to what industry and students ultimately will want.

Dean Sherwell

So the quality and the value of the qualification, you know, introduced by the Pivotal team, the immediate relevance to the current need, and And it is, it's a red hot moment in time in terms of where we need to be and what needs to be out there in terms of learning.

Dean Sherwell

The relevance and the recognition of that cutting edge nature of the qualification that is so unique from the guys at Pivotal and the overall team really makes a difference. So that I think that when you bring something like this together, You really got to say, where's that special spark in there to go?

Dean Sherwell

What's different about this? How is this going to be market leading, for example?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And I think this is like one of the first, probably the first course of this type, and it's something that the industry really needed. And Brian, before this qualification existed, what did upskilling and digital construction actually look like? Because

Bryan Tay

EE.

Andrea Ciaffi

I feel like many people have learned it by themselves. They've tried to find a mentor, but can you share with us what this looked like before this course?

Bryan Tay

Yeah, thanks, Andrea. Most definitely. Learning was most definitely and almost always informal. But there's nothing particularly wrong with that. However, in there lies the problem, is the fragmented exposure you get. A lot of the growth in digital engineering skill sets came from project exposure, and more importantly, the people you work with.

Bryan Tay

So for me, I'd say the skills I learned in rule-based design coordination, parametric and computational design, asset management, operational workflows, database management, terrestrial laser scanning, point cloud processing, all those different skills that I have had the opportunity to work on and get was actually through different professionals.

Bryan Tay

Each one of them were different professionals. So I can understand for an individual wanting to take a leap into this space, it can be really terrifying. Because the fragmented exposure meant inconsistent skill sets, scope of DE being very broad. And there's also different expectations from one manager to another, one project to another.

Bryan Tay

So I think the problem began or became more prominent, shall I say, when digital engineering became a more expected requirement in modern product project delivery. So then it started being or shedding light on the inconsistencies in the capabilities and definitely a shortage of professionals who can support the broader digital engineering requirements, you know, across be it engineering, construction, operational and maintenance.

Bryan Tay

And the ones that could, they were most definitely overloaded. Yeah, so I think that's how I've seen industry upskill, I should put it that way, very fragmented.

Dean Sherwell

Mm. No, I'll add something to what Brian said there around the consistency of what you're talking about. So it's almost like when something comes to the market or there's a need in a particular industry, there's pockets of excellence and you see it.

Dean Sherwell

And then how do you then bottle that excellence to be able to do that in some consistent Practical, scalable way, and I guess that you know when when we when we look to partner with organizations like Pivotal.

Dean Sherwell

That's exactly the, that's kind of the zero in factor really to say, we can make this scalable, we can make this consistent and we can bring a consistency to, you know, almost the purchase of which is the student in this case, which really makes a massive difference in the industry.

Dean Sherwell

So that's really important to note, mate.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And Brian, when you started this journey,

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

there was no framework. There was no definition of what a digital,

Bryan Tay

Mhm.

Andrea Ciaffi

a competent digital engineer should know, should be able to do. How did you define that?

Bryan Tay

Well, firstly, we had an idea, but we definitely vetted that with the industry when this curriculum all came about. But without overcomplicating it, I think a competent digital engineer who is especially striving in this space should be reflective of four particular categories.

Bryan Tay

One is the digital technology space, where Knowledge and experience in using the technology or the digital engineering tools, the systems that we use, the file exchange format, what it contains, and... Being able to understand its functionality, capabilities, limitations of these, that's one of the key functions or aspects or categories, should I say, that they need to be kept up to date with.

Bryan Tay

Then you got the digital engineering services, which is all about understanding information management, modeling, coordination, data management, the quality governance and control aspects. being able to apply it on a project in a real world environment. Then the next one would be leadership and management.

Bryan Tay

I'd say, hands down, to be able to guide teams, provide expert advice, coordinate them, set up workflows and most importantly, help the entire project team or the wider organization to actually interact with what has been set up. Then you've got industry sector exposure.

Bryan Tay

We can't escape that. I think to apply technology appropriately, you need to understand specific practices, standards. So you need to understand requirements if you're doing, you know, an underground train station, working on an above ground rail, rd project, buildings, all the intricacies that you translate into workable processes and rules within the digital engineering space.

Bryan Tay

So... In summary, I'd say digital technology, digital engineering services, leadership and management, and most definitely industry sector exposure.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, and when we think about the organizations, because at the end of the day, all of the people that you end up training will be working for organizations that potentially investing

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

in digital transformation. What does the absence of a recognized

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

qualification actually cost them in practice?

Bryan Tay

Ooh, this is a big question. I think for an organization... There is, I think the first one would be simply no way of consistently training your team. Unless you do it internally, unless you invest all that time to convert all that training material and even have a designated individual that's actually training your team internally, it is tremendously difficult.

Bryan Tay

So it also then takes away the valuable time away from the organization. from exactly what it does best, which is actually running a business. A organization or a business should be able to focus on what they do best instead of having to, you know, completely revamp their training and development processes and establishing a whole training program internally.

Bryan Tay

Next would be capabilities being inconsistent and not being able to really benchmark to demonstrate their competitive advantage within. tenders within working with particular clients. And the only way, as we mentioned previously, is project exposure and individual experiences. So instead of having that benchmark qualification, you're relying on your previous experience on another project, which you know the...

Bryan Tay

client knows the individual can deliver in that specific way for that specific role that they're applying for. So this kind of brings that level up of your team and to demonstrate that. There's also retention challenges. Once you have a highly skilled digital engineer, there's a strong demand and there's high chances that they would move on.

Bryan Tay

So after all the time you've invested. And I'd say another probably last two to

Dean Sherwell

The.

Bryan Tay

make it short, there could be a long list. Commercial risks as D becomes a contractual expectation. And ultimately, all business wants the ROI for rolling out new technology. And within the digital engineering space, it is highly dependent on a workforce that can apply consistently across the industry.

Andrea Ciaffi

On this topic of talent retention, I want to share some insights from my

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

personal career. And I've seen that in general, people that try to navigate this space of digital engineering are usually people that want to do a little bit more because they're not just satisfied with the status quo. They want to

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

to do more for their business and for their industry. And one of the challenge that these people face is that sometimes their role is not clearly defined. In like me, even like for me personally,

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

like I remember having conversation with people says, what do you actually do? This is many years ago, more than a decade ago. But people would say, what is it that you do? Like This is because there was no clear career path. There was no clear training.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

So I'm glad that you are exploring this space and you build this course because now the path for these people will be a little bit more clear and will be a little bit more recognized by the industry. But think about, yeah,

Bryan Tay

Yeah, no, indeed. Yeah, no, indeed. Thanks, Andrea. That's a very valid point.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Bryan Tay

And that's, I guess, this partnership between Pivadel and TAFE Queensland. We want to try to bring that to the market as soon as possible and in the most, you know, reliable way.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And when we think about these people, right, so we are thinking about the ideal person that should be doing this qualification, I guess maybe we'll be wondering about

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

what does the day-to-day currently look like.

Bryan Tay

Mhm. Oh, yeah, I think for an ideal person would be individuals who want to advance their career in the digital engineering field or a designer who'd like to step into digital engineering. And there's also benefits for and opportunities for people who want to enhance or complement their current capabilities and skill sets.

Bryan Tay

So as a design manager, for example, project manager, construction manager, even asset information managers. We have designed collectively as a partnership a completely online. course.

Bryan Tay

And we have the, I guess the systems and Dean can talk a little bit about the systems and the backend behind that, but we completely, we design it completely online so that the day-to-day professionals has the flexibility to actually study remotely whilst working full-time.

Bryan Tay

So that's what we're trying to achieve and make it as most accessible as possible because we know that digital engineering skill set is applicable And beneficial for the entire industry. Do you have anything to say about the systems then, just on that? Mm.

Dean Sherwell

We're able to bring the consistency of products, so utilizing the specific content that the Pivotal team have brought to the table and essentially plugging it into our existing systems without too much

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

drama. So I think that adds a real value. It's consistent across. across the nation wherever you are. So it's not that you're logging into

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

different educational portals or systems or anything like that. You're actually coming into the TAFE Queensland Connect system to be able to complete the requirements. And I think the word flexibility, which is a bit of an overused word these days, I think, but it is absolutely A requirement for this role in terms of...

Dean Sherwell

Guys and girls are going to be working in this location, whatever that might be,

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Dean Sherwell

and it gives them the opportunity to upscale their skills whilst they're still doing their job.

Bryan Tay

Yeah, no, that's definitely so.

Andrea Ciaffi

And clearly this was a problem that the industry needed to solve. If you want to find evidence, just look at all of the vendors that have

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

been creating short courses to teach you how to do one specific thing for their

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

specific platform. But what does this advanced diploma give somebody? That a pile of short courses and vendor badges simply can't.

Bryan Tay

I'm going to say that software developers have an ulterior motive for those, but I won't go into that in detail. Look, I'm training for short courses and vendor badges. I think it, well, it's most definitely commonly been software focused. How do I use this piece of software or technology?

Bryan Tay

And You'll potentially gain an appreciation of the functions and limitations of that software and technology. But this qualification, however, focus on the capability and competencies to apply technology in project, well,

Dean Sherwell

Look.

Bryan Tay

in achieving project and organizational objectives. So it's just not software skills, but foundational, I guess, principles and processes to actually help organizations embed technology within their organization more effectively. It is a vocationally relevant qualification. So throughout the program, what I mean by that is throughout the program, you will be applying skills in scenarios that you would use in a workplace.

Bryan Tay

And that also to note what Dean was saying, that it's actually people within this role are typically working online and also in many occasions remotely. So that course aligns and teaches that individual to be able to work effectively within that environment as well.

Andrea Ciaffi

And I think one of the challenges that you probably faced at the beginning was how to design this curriculum, right? Because you are trying to make it

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

rigorous enough to provide real value, but at the same time, it needs to be practical enough because the people that will be taking this

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

course potentially are already working. So can you share with us what the journey looked like when you were trying to design this curriculum?

Bryan Tay

Yeah, no, no worries. This is a credited course. If anyone has heard of ASQA, I'm sure people in the education industry have, they have a very rigorous process to actually get a qualification or a course accredited.

Bryan Tay

So in order to get a course nationally recognised, It requires, it would require to be proven that industry has a need for this skill set and there is existing jobs out there. We then had to work closely in collaborating with diverse set of industry practitioners and also with industry practitioners with specialized skill sets that were required.

Bryan Tay

I mean, Andrea, you too were part of the committee. What do you think about the collaboration and work that went into that?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Yeah, good point. And disclaimer, I helped the PUDL team. I've just been one of the people that were part of a committee that were trying to support this mission and try to make sure that the codes that has been designed is the most valuable possible for the people that are working in this space.

Andrea Ciaffi

And Even me personally, I've learned a lot because I was bringing my own personal career journey. And I've seen that many people have been in the same space, different ages and career point, different disciplines, and everybody was bringing their point of view. And I think that was very, very helpful.

Andrea Ciaffi

like designing a course and a program that will, it is basically something that I wish existed when I started. That was even my point of view when I started. So thanks, Brian,

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

for making that possible and thanks, Dean, for supporting this.

Dean Sherwell

I think it's not to be understated, guys, that you mentioned ASQA, and we won't get into the regulatory authority talk, but I think that...

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Dean Sherwell

The ability to be able to design a course literally from scratch whilst engaging with industry experts, contemporary industry experts, to develop a curriculum that is meaningful now to launch out into the marketplace is not, it just is not to be understated.

Dean Sherwell

We have government authorities and representatives that are working constantly on developing skills programs for training packages in every industry you can possibly think of, that is regulated and planned and then rolled out across the vocational education system. So this is separate to that, starting from scratch.

Dean Sherwell

So, and I think the value and the real power of what you were saying, Andrea, in terms of your involvement and others in the committee is to say that you've got people that are doing it now that are designing it for something that doesn't

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

exist. And now it does. And here is now the value of that.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

So we have to put it simply, real life engineers designing a real life program for engineers in a digital space right now. So it's incredibly unique in its, and we used the word cutting edge before.

Bryan Tay

Mhm.

Dean Sherwell

So I think that that adds real value to it, which again was an attraction for us when we go into these arrangements. you know, what does it actually look like? And once we start to understand what that looks like and the work that the team have put in to develop this, and I guess to their credit, we've done a lot of agreements and arrangements in this space.

Dean Sherwell

And I always was pleased with our quality team to come back and go, these guys are superheroes. How do they do this? So it was quite amazing to see, and that to me validates, oh, we've made a great decision here, and this is going to work really well.

Bryan Tay

In.

Dean Sherwell

So it's really exciting now to see it ready to launch.

Bryan Tay

You flatter sting.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Yeah, and I can share that I witnessed this process from the beginning, from inception. And what I've seen is a quite large group of industry leaders that were actually, like you said, the end, they're actually working in this field.

Andrea Ciaffi

They were so passionate about solving this problem for the next generation of people that will coming to this industry and make sure that they don't feel the pain that they experienced during their career. So I hope that as a minimum,

Dean Sherwell

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

the next generation could enjoy this and would not be struggling the same problems

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

that my generation and the generation before had.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

Mm.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Um, uh.

Bryan Tay

Yeah, no, I do. I do say that, you know, creating this course was not possible because I mentioned before, you know, learning is through these different practitioners who have that unique specialized experience. And what we've tried to do is bring all those people together to create this advanced diploma.

Bryan Tay

So it's written exactly how you would and is needed for a job. Oh, and not to mention it has to be taught by industry practitioners with the relevant experience. And it will be refreshed on a periodic basis to ensure its relevance as well.

Bryan Tay

So that's something not to continued improvement is part of digital engineering, but also part of the education space. So

Dean Sherwell

True.

Andrea Ciaffi

And I want and I want to touch on a point like which relates to vocational education, right? Because somebody may think, why not the university? Why not any other approach, right?

Dean Sherwell

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

And there is still a perception in some quarters that vocational education potentially is a lesser option, but Why do you think this is not the case for this industry? Let's address this.

Dean Sherwell

Mm. It's funny, I guess, from my perspective, I've just spent three days at a conference with TAFE executives and leaders, actually. So the idea, and I would say the national experts on harmonization, they're calling it between what vocational education and university education needs to look like in 2040.

Dean Sherwell

And the very specific and deliberate strategy around the word harmonization and layering those two things, where universities are realizing that the vocational nature and the practical nature of the work is absolutely critical. So they're not, it's not a competition, they're complementary to each other.

Dean Sherwell

And and, you know, conversations around how they're starting to move together so that maybe, you know, when your children guys are going and looking at university pathways, it won't be a confusing decision because they'll just know what the best option is in the market.

Dean Sherwell

So I think that the perception that it is lesser is actually not necessarily about that. It's more about what is relevant and practical at the time for you, because you continue to advance your way, wherever that may be. You know, we might look at a higher education version of this at some point, you know, we don't even we don't know where that will take us.

Dean Sherwell

I think that traditionally, if you talk vocational education and you use the word TAFE, that automatically spells a guy in high vis with a with a nail gun. and a unit in a trailer, right? Like that's what the community thinks TAFE is. I mean, I know that it is way more detailed and sophisticated than that.

Dean Sherwell

And here's a classic example. Like this is an advanced deployment of digital engineering. I mean, it's highly technical and you need to be highly skilled to be able to operate in that.

Dean Sherwell

And I think as the tech comes into play and becomes a more industry-led requirement, which is what's actually happened to get us to this point, you know, the competitive nature of organisations or even individuals might come into play to say, well, I've advanced myself, pardon the pun, into this particular space while doing this, while doing my job, while actually practicing the skills today.

Dean Sherwell

that I learned last night in the workshop. You know what I mean? So it's real time action. And I think that is if you take what an

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

apprenticeship might do and then you apply what this does, it's actually not that different because you're applying what you learn right now. And I think that's the real value of it. And where your pathway takes you from there, well, that's up to you individually.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

And, you know, sometimes there are people who study engineering, and I'm one of them. I went to uni, I studied engineering, civil engineering. There are people who have construction management degrees. But what does these vocational education pathway offer that they already, they don't have already?

Dean Sherwell

in terms of people that are already higher education qualified.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yes.

Dean Sherwell

And I think that it's probably a Brian question in terms of the detail, but I think really it comes down to the applied learning.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

So it's kind of what I was saying before about learn tonight, apply tomorrow, you know. It really is, you know, the individual and as the industry move forward, you know, it doesn't matter what you do now, the digital requirement for you, and I won't even mention the AI component of that, is real.

Dean Sherwell

You need to be able to navigate your way through this. You know, and so if you graduate from your four year uni degree, it may well, you have a whole heap of theoretical aspects around how to apply digital engineering skills, and you've probably done internships and you've done all of that as well.

Dean Sherwell

But over the time, you know, knowing how to apply these skills in the workplace may not be as relevant or as prevalent as what you might be able to do this because you are in that working environment already, and you're coming from a very strong base.

Dean Sherwell

of understanding of what's required and what's needed. And that could be in the ecosystem that you are part of as a, you know, an engineering supervisor or a project manager or whatever you might be in your space through to, you know, the educational cohort that you're working with.

Dean Sherwell

So that network is key as well.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, and I don't know if Brian has anything you want to add on this, but I can share, I can, yeah.

Bryan Tay

No, I was just going to say, Dean just explained that perfectly. I won't go into the technical differences, but I think that's exactly, it hits the nail on the head.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, I just want to share my point of view having been involved in the, like, as an advisor for this course, helping with the committee. Again, I study engineering and I found all of these courses that were very relevant, but sometimes a bit generic and not practical enough.

Andrea Ciaffi

So when I joined the workforce, I found myself trying to learn how to actually do the job. So all of that theoretical knowledge was very useful, but then I wasn't able to immediately get my hand dirty and get started quickly.

Bryan Tay

Mm. Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

I think this course will give them an opportunity to say, okay, now you have all of this theory that is super valuable, but now this is how you actually do the things in the field.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

I think that's the real value. It sets you up for success very quickly. Saves you, saves you years of pain.

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Dean Sherwell

Mhm.

Bryan Tay

Not to overdo it, I guess. A lot of the times from a degree, you don't get a sight of how business operates. And I think this is the main differentiator. It's business processes.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm.

Bryan Tay

It gives you a sight, an understanding of risks associated to the business when you're applying your skill set. To deliver a project, and what have you, so it gives that an alternative view, too, so...

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And Brian, when we think about this advanced diploma

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

and we all have a career and this career could be potentially long for many of us. And how is this advanced diploma fitting into this longer career journey?

Bryan Tay

MMM.

Andrea Ciaffi

Is this a stepping stone? Is this a destination or something else entirely?

Bryan Tay

Well, the advanced diploma specifically, it really depends on where the individual is in their career journey, because honestly, it's all the above, right? It bolsters your credentials and gives you the confidence in project delivery within the built environment. It could also be for an individual, a start of a reputable trusted career pathway.

Bryan Tay

The main thing I do want to point out is that this partnership between Pivotal and TAFE Queensland, particularly TAFE Queensland with their integration and connections with schools, we want to bring the awareness to the awareness to the need of industry for this particular skill set, potentially even providing that partnership.

Bryan Tay

pathway right from schools and well into their employment. So the advanced deployment is a start, but digital engineering and that skill set is a long career journey. And that's what we want to start trying to position this partnership to be able to do.

Bryan Tay

So Insight to the future, but yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

And I want to touch also on to a great opportunity that this industry has, which is the 2032 Olympic Games that will be held in Queensland. This is a fantastic opportunity, right? And 2033 will come very quickly. We realize time just flies. But Dean, when do you think...

Bryan Tay

Mhm.

Andrea Ciaffi

When you think about the construction activity that Queensland is adding to

Dean Sherwell

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

over the next decade, what does the digital skill shortage actually look like at the practical project level?

Dean Sherwell

It's, if you start with the fact that we're 45, 000 construction personnel short right now. and then you work your way across and down that pyramid of skills that are required. I think it's a real challenge.

Dean Sherwell

So I think that the opportunity, and so what we've been touching on a bit thematic today is around the digital skills and where that AI piece might fit in in terms of enhancement to jump ahead a little bit.

Dean Sherwell

But I think that where what I've learned from what I was saying before, there's a lot of every conference you go to, there's four or five AI sessions, as you would imagine, now you've all been to them. And everybody has a view, but my personal view is that AI is the enabler, not the replacer.

Dean Sherwell

So if you're able to understand what AI does, to enable you to be more skilled, then that then gives the digital skills platform a much broader reach anyway, because everybody will be touching it outside of that.

Dean Sherwell

So what I'm meaning there is that how we can then bring, so then there'll be a lot of noise around digital, there has been, digital literacy in general in the community, let alone at a professional level, right through now the noises around AI.

Dean Sherwell

But if we 0 in on the fact that we have a

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Dean Sherwell

qualification that actually talks about building things, real things, and real outcomes in the context of 2032, I think is an enormous advantage to Queensland in particular. And I'm really excited to see what we can do with that, because it's like a bit of a playground for this particular program, right?

Dean Sherwell

Like here we are, and it's all within a 200 kilometer radius of itself. So I think it's a really exciting opportunity to test my theory or anyone else's for that matter.

Bryan Tay

The.

Andrea Ciaffi

Brian, do you have an opinion around what's

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

happening with AI? Because somebody is starting this journey,

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

they may be stressed about making a decision and sometimes they can be

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

paralyzed and thinking, oh, should they actually go into this course with this AI, AI that is

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Taking people's job, what do you think about that?

Bryan Tay

Well, I think that I see every day, you know, as Dean mentioned, a lot of people talking about AI and how it's replacing jobs and the news articles don't help either. But AI, I liken it to any sort of major technology shift that we've experienced over the past few decades.

Bryan Tay

I think The millennial babies have had the opportunity to see the growth of the internet, you know, the introduction of smartphone when we didn't have one till now we do. It's A disruptor, no doubt, but I think it's an ultimately a positive one for industry because Like any technology.

Bryan Tay

AI is a tool and digital engineering skill set provides you that foundation that allows you to use technology effectively to achieve that business objective, that outcome that you're looking to achieve. So any technology in this case, particularly AI, still depends on the quality of information, the reliability of it, structured data, coordination fundamentals between people, but now introducing technology, how do we work with technology?

Bryan Tay

And also foundational engineering understanding. We can't escape that. we are in this role to provide infrastructure or, you know, for the community. And there's a lot of risks associated with the information that we exchange. So people still need to make the decision, even though AI may have done and got us there a little bit quicker.

Bryan Tay

So if you have that robust governance processes integrated with the organization's process and AI, I think we will then have a more reliable outcome that we are trying to achieve with this skill set. And at the end of the day, look, people still need to make that right decisions.

Bryan Tay

So rather than replacing these careers, I think it's reshaping and diversifying. And no doubt people with a strong digital engineering capability, it opens up opportunities for them to help and help the businesses navigate this complex era of AI, digital twins, digital frameworks, data ecosystems, and that rapidly evolving technology.

Bryan Tay

So hopefully, at the end of this, we expect that those skills will help those individuals, help businesses realize that meaningful and long-term value in that digital investment. So Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Definitely. And sometimes people are already working their jobs and they may need their employer to support them,

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

potentially pay for the course. But for somebody who wants to do this

Bryan Tay

Mhm.

Andrea Ciaffi

qualification but still needs their employer to fund it, what's the most compelling argument they can make?

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

We just want to make sure that they can go there prepared. and say, hey, boss, this is the reason why you should be sending me to this course.

Bryan Tay

Well, tricky question. Look, ask yourself what is currently important to the business. What's their strategy? And once you know that, I can give you some points you might be able to put forward. So firstly, the course has been designed for almost immediate application.

Bryan Tay

of these processes and skills within the organization, right? So it has components of preparing and reviewing a bid proposal, specifically in the digital engineering space, preparing a digital engineering execution plan, you know, designing a data validation tool, fundamentals around managing scripts, so that developments that you create within the business are reusable and can grow with the company.

Bryan Tay

So ultimately, those aspects and those skills are some of the core competencies that you or practices that you would be doing. within that qualification. So as digital engineering requirements become more commonly required and mandated across modern project delivery, organizations will need their internal capabilities to better contractually manage and coordinate and alleviate some of the commercial risks.

Bryan Tay

Finally, another point would be stay competitive. As this is a skill set that enables you to have that branch into technology. I think it's rather than a niche skill set, it is almost a foundational capability that's required to help business stay competitive and keep up with industry and technology advancements.

Bryan Tay

And finally, for them competing with other practitioners, I guess this demonstrates that their team

Dean Sherwell

Mm.

Bryan Tay

has the right skill sets to deliver what they need for the major projects across Australia.

Andrea Ciaffi

You probably touched on this while you were answering these questions, but when you try to think about from the organization point of view and the

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

organization digital capability, when somebody in their team actually holds this qualification, do they think, is there a risk that these values stays with that person or does it lift the old team up? How does it? What do you think about that?

Bryan Tay

Mm-mm. Well, I mean, most definitely it stays with the person, but let's not discount the benefits as the organization, right?

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm.

Bryan Tay

We just covered a couple of them. But I think what, in terms of a more micro level within a team and within the project team, leadership and management are core components, sorry, of the Advanced Diploma. So It develops your ability or encourages you to engage with stakeholders, coordinate teams.

Bryan Tay

It covers those principles, understanding and interpreting project requirements so that you can support those delivery outcomes. You will also learn to organize and facilitate discussions with those key stakeholders. right? And that is fundamental in, I guess, anything that we do, especially when it works, it works with multiple and various stakeholders across, you know, different organizations and through joint ventures as well.

Bryan Tay

So to answer the question, the value, it not only stays the person, it lifts the team around you. around you because you have that foundational knowledge and have that confidence to support your other team members as well, who may not have set this course at this point in time.

Bryan Tay

Provide those guidance and improve that technical communication across disciplines so that they can interact with the necessary Responsibilities or activities in the digital engineering space that the organisation and projects have set up to achieve their objectives.

Andrea Ciaffi

And Brian, this is my very last question.

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

I like to, I really like to think about the future

Bryan Tay

No worries.

Andrea Ciaffi

and the vision that Pivodell has. And if Pivodell achieves everything that

Bryan Tay

Mm.

Andrea Ciaffi

you're hoping for over the next decade, what does the construction industry look like and what's changed just because of Pivodell?

Bryan Tay

Wow. I think... I'd like to see an industry that works together very differently to how it does today. where this digital engineering capability is no longer isolated with experts or individuals or certain organizations, but shared consistently across that broader industry. Because again, as I mentioned, we can't achieve the value without having this knowledge embedded across the industry, within the workforce, to be able to work together.

Bryan Tay

I think I like to see the engineering information exchange more seamlessly between organizations, between disciplines, construction teams, asset owners, and what have you, you know. Less friction. And stronger trust, because a lot of the times you see something exchanged and go, right, I'm going to redo this.

Bryan Tay

And the repeated effort within the industry, it's quite shocking how often that occurs. So I like to see that trust with the information that's been exchanged and delivered. I mean, I always liken it to currency, where we know it's quality checked, that dollar bill or $5 bill is quality checked.

Bryan Tay

It's trusted and accepted by us as a society, and it's backed by the government. We can so wholeheartedly pick up that and go about our day trading in commerce.

Dean Sherwell

Mm.

Bryan Tay

So we industry progress as a collective where technology no longer is viewed as a barrier, but help us all approach it with curiosity, confidence, and a genuine sense of, I guess, adventure to find that next opportunity when new technology arises.

Bryan Tay

Hopefully, that's inspirational enough, but I think I think that's what I've always wanted to see, and I think together as in this partnership, I strongly believe that we have the team to actually achieve that.

Andrea Ciaffi

We are at the end of this episode. Brian, Dean, thank you for joining us, but if people want to reach out or find out more about the qualification,

Bryan Tay

My words.

Andrea Ciaffi

where should they go?

Dean Sherwell

Yes, so we'll have everything set up through the TAFE Queensland website, but also the Pivotal website as well, and it all links in together. So wherever you find either Pivotal or TAFE Queensland, it's always good old LinkedIn to look both Brian and I up and the Pivotal team.

Dean Sherwell

So yeah, that's easy enough to find us.

Bryan Tay

Yep.

Dean Sherwell

We won't be too far away, I don't think.

Andrea Ciaffi

And I will also add the links. I will also add the links. Thank you,

Bryan Tay

No, this.

Dean Sherwell

Perfect.

Andrea Ciaffi

Brian. Thank you, Dean. A great day. Thank you for joining on the Digital

Bryan Tay

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Consultant Podcast.

Dean Sherwell

Thanks, Andrea. It has been great. Cheers.

Bryan Tay

Thanks, Andrea. It's been a pleasure.