BIM and Small Contractors with Alex Harris

Andrea Ciaffi

Hi Alex. Welcome to the Digital Construction podcast. How are you today?

Alex Harris

Good. Thanks Andre. Thanks for having me.

Andrea Ciaffi

In this episode, we speak with Alex Harris, Digital engineering leader Bilby. We'll talk about navigating beam and digital delivery from the small contractors perspective, which is very exciting. Alex is going to share with US real world lessons in doing more with less. Which I think it's it's useful for everybody, not just more contractors.

Andrea Ciaffi

And what digital success look like in Queensland infrastructure landscape. Queensland is very topical because we know that we have the Olympics in Brisbane in 2032, so I'm very keen to learn more about what's going on in Queensland from your point of view. But before we start, Alex.

Andrea Ciaffi

I have a nice brigade for you. What's the best piece of advice you have

Alex Harris

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

ever received in your career?

Alex Harris

It's been going for a little while now. I think back in my early days at Hatch we I was lucky to work with some really good senior designers. One of the things they always drilled into us is that don't rush, take your time, get it right mentality.

Alex Harris

It's it's basically the old measure twice. Once idea, I guess I've tried to carry that with me ever since and try and pass that along to younger team members. When you're starting out, there's always this urge to prove yourself by working fast by submitting.

Alex Harris

But like by submitting things too quickly. You sometimes bring in errors and and you're going to cause more rework for others, so I guess it's that case of just slowing down a little bit. Do that one more. Check yourself. It generally saves everyone a bit of time and effort in the long run.

Alex Harris

I think another way to look at it is to take ownership of what you produce. Just to take pride in it, this industry is small. You need to deliver quality outputs. We're often brushed in our work, but we still need to make sure we we deliver it over high quality.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's a very it's a really good one and today we're talking about small contractors and and their perspective because there's a lot of highlights on large companies. But also I'm keen to speak to you about this topic because you work there. So you've been with lendley,

Alex Harris

Uh-huh.

Andrea Ciaffi

you've been with Axion. You've seen a few things, so I guess the I want to start asking you what's the biggest difference? What are the biggest difference between smaller contractors and large contractors when they approach beam?

Alex Harris

I think as small as I guess that Jack of all trades a little bit, you can't afford to have like the so many specialists around you've got, you've got some in the larger projects, you've got this guide that's just doing this piece of the puzzle and you've got another one over here doing this piece of the puzzle.

Alex Harris

When you're smaller, you've got definitely be a bit more leaner, so you've got to be that Jack of all trades. You've got to be hands on with the tools, but you still need to have that. I guess that experience and knowledge to sit there, the oversight and the strategy level to really guide things along as well.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's interesting. And I think 1 practical piece of the puzzle is the digital delivery strategy. Like how do you tailor a digital delivery strategy? What is more contractor into a real projects because as you mentioned, like when you work in a large company, you probably have one.

Andrea Ciaffi

Something one, one small thing. Another person doing another small thing. But what does a digital strategy looks like in a small contractor?

Alex Harris

Well, I guess the other another way to look is like, what's the difference between the has been different between Tier 1, Tier 2 it it's I guess like against Tier 2 is leaner. We don't always have these mega projects to be able to lean on and leverage their huge BIM budgets.

Alex Harris

And quite often, I guess, even though BIM isn't new, it's for us it's not a consistent requirement from all required clients yet. So we have to take that less as more approach, the Det needs to be flexible. Like, again, you've got to be that Jack of all trades.

Alex Harris

But I think when it comes down to it, I think a Tier 2 contractor can still deliver the tier level tier one level. It's it's all about having the the right people about focusing on. What matters?

Alex Harris

I think sometimes when you've got these the tier one approach you are looking at some of the the big flashy things off to the side because you you want you're kind of showing this. This this big approach of what can be done is I think the tier one.

Alex Harris

Sorry, the Tier 2 focus a bit more on what brings value to the project right now. So it's, I guess yeah, just trying to focus on those, those things a bit more.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And you're right, sometimes like smaller contractors can still deliver tier one quality at the end of the day, it's the same people jumping from one company to another. So people like you that were there before.

Alex Harris

Uh. Exactly like many, many of us in building of a tier one like

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Alex Harris

yeah, we we leverage that experience and capability. So yeah it it's.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. The soft yeah, the software is the same. The people are the same. It's just a different company sometime.

Alex Harris

That's right.

Andrea Ciaffi

And are there any beam frameworks that you find particularly particularly useful?

Alex Harris

I I I think with any framework it's it's important to kind of treat it as a guide, not gospel. You've got to ask what's the intent behind it. I think sometimes we can get a bit too caught up in the finer details of some of these frameworks and you end up.

Alex Harris

Arguing about these little details off the side that give no value, obviously ISO 9650 is the the big one. I generally like the the standard in a in a simplified view. At its core, it just helps us agree on things like document numbering, model sharing.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm-hmm.

Alex Harris

It makes collaboration easier. Of course, you could do all this without ISO 960, but the value is just having that shared starting point. You can you can sit across the table from another company and say are we both

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Alex Harris

following ISO 9650? Great. How often are we sharing models? You don't have to reinvent the the wheel each time, so yeah, of course you've got to hail that, I guess. Make sure it makes sense for the project if it is something doesn't make sense you you discuss it as a group and just move on.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Great. And you touched before the point of doing more with less. That's a very interesting concept and I think in general, everybody should do that, right?

Alex Harris

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

So trying to optimise, I think it's a way to optimise resources,

Alex Harris

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

but what's your approach from the digital engineering point of view when resources are limited on projects?

Alex Harris

Yeah. Again, I think when resources are the light, it's that Jack of all trades that I mentioned earlier like for instance, if you need to create a starting FPX jump in, if it works, figure it out. If you need to move things around the model quickly, Dynamo is your friend.

Alex Harris

If you're working across formats like Revit 12D Civil three, you just got to Start learning what the inner intricacies of those softwares and getting what you need out of it quickly. Because we work in smaller teams like being flexible. Is key and you've got to be able to push yourself.

Alex Harris

You've got to be willing to teach yourself new tools and keep at it until you get the result you need. Often the first solution doesn't work, so you've got to pivot and try something else and just keep going. When you're working in small teams, you just need to look out for the look for those efficiencies and and also probably look for things beyond just that project.

Alex Harris

I think that mindset probably comes from a design days where you sometimes spend a little bit more time on a task. So it's flexible enough so to reuse or adapt for the next job. When you can build something that's scalable or multi-purpose, it usually pays off in the long run, and I guess you've got to also leverage those networks outside your company.

Alex Harris

Like I think it's always important to

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Alex Harris

have those connections. Like I often find when I catch up with old dear colleagues that the conversation always shifts to what challenges are you trying to solve? Like we're generally curious about the tools and systems, and I think we quite often are very happy to make suggestions that often turns into that.

Alex Harris

Have you tried this kind of chat and just everyone? Trying to get to the same level and trying to help each other out, which is really good.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's interesting how there are. There are a lot of lots of people working in this industry by the end of the day, it's like a very small community,

Alex Harris

It does, yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

always the same people around around which is, which is nice.

Alex Harris

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

And you mentioned just a few like Dynamo and some solution, but can you think of some low cost, high impact? Digital wins that can be implemented on projects.

Alex Harris

It's the flavour of the month or the year. AI is definitely,

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm-hmm.

Alex Harris

definitely the big one in this space. It's been a real game changer. It's made scripting way more accessible, especially for people who might not be full-time coders but have a solid understanding of what they want to happen. So with AI tools you can solve problems without needing to invest, potentially in commercial platforms, which I think it's been really amazing.

Alex Harris

Like we've been able to push like scripts that check IFC files, push data into IFC files. You just you just run the script and you don't have to open up any heavy software or manually step through processes. It's in some cases, yeah, it's just meant we've been able to avoid buying software altogether, which has been really good.

Alex Harris

Umm. Yeah, on projects without the budget for full collaboration platforms, we've also used like things like navisworks, just clash detection, it's cost effective, creating Dynamo like little nodes to show where all the clashes are on the model. And so someone can see it in a freedom model is pretty useful too.

Alex Harris

So I guess, yeah, these kind of small targeted things, they're very low cost and they can have a big impact for a project.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's interesting. Like the using AI to avoid buying other software packages. That's interesting. It's a very interesting appreciation.

Alex Harris

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, a good point. And one of the questions I have, it's relates to the what's good enough, right, because you you are working on a project you have. Time constraints budget constraints. At some point you need to decide what's good enough without sacrificing quality.

Andrea Ciaffi

How do you manage that?

Alex Harris

That old age perfect is the enemy of good you. You want to make sure things are as accurate as possible, but only to the level of they actually that adds value. So I guess the always the good fall back is the lods. There's no point building a highly detailed geometry model that's only going to go into a data set that requires the general properties or general dimensions.

Alex Harris

So I guess what matters most is that the model represents that object clearly, and the key interfaces are accurate. It doesn't mean I'm advocating for a very crude geometry, it still needs to be recognisable and useful. But things like internal product connections, highly detailed hardware, that's just all noise if no one's using it, I think.

Alex Harris

It's also important to keep in mind what that deliverable is for. If it's a prelim submission, it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be just needs to communicate the right intent. But if it's for formal submission, then you probably need to be a bit more accurate.

Alex Harris

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Interesting. Yeah. And so you are based in Queensland and for the listeners that are outside of Australia, Queensland is the state of Australia, capital is Brisbane and we have when we think about the.

Andrea Ciaffi

Time that takes to build infrastructure projects the Brisbane Olympic in 2032 are just around the corner, so it's coming very quickly and I'm very keen to understand from your point of view, what's the current state of. Digi Engineering in Queensland. So you worked in small companies, large companies.

Andrea Ciaffi

What do you think about the current state of Digi engineering in your state now?

Alex Harris

I think Queensland's digital engineering space isn't too different to the rest of Australia. The the major push is still coming from state government clients. They're the ones driving BM and D requirements forward. But I think because of that, we're starting to see D recognised as a genuine evaluate on projects as a whole.

Alex Harris

Is is smaller private clients and councils aren't quite there yet. We're seeing glimpses, little signs of DEA starting to come into projects, but I think one thing that's interesting is like it may be state based clients that are driving it, but a lot of the people.

Alex Harris

Doing the work, working across multiple states. So you started to see little things that come in from let's say NSW Victoria brought into Queensland and I'm hoping vice versa as well. It's a bit of a knowledge share as this whole thing's building up.

Alex Harris

And I think it's, I guess building Speaking of that building up, it's really good to see that the bar is rising. Each major project pushes the boundaries just a little bit more. And I think they trial something new. They feed that back into the next round of client requirements.

Alex Harris

Been the expectations we saw like five years ago is worlds apart from what we're seeing now and I think credit goes to some of the people driving this. They're generally pretty open to listening the industry and getting that feedback and making things change for the better.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's great. And when when I think about Queensland, I'm one of the advantages that I can think of is the fact that in working in this specific region is the fact that you can really tap into talents that is distributed all around Australia or in the Asia Pacific region.

Andrea Ciaffi

So can you think of any other, maybe challenge unique challenges or advantages in working in this specific region?

Alex Harris

I haven't worked in every other region to compare.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm-hmm.

Alex Harris

I've worked in a few different states, but I think one thing that does stand out with Queensland is the geographic spread. So we are a large state, so the population's spread across quite a quite a distance. I think you're generally seeing the DD adoption or BIM adoption focus probably more around the southeast of the state.

Alex Harris

But I think the different regions they definitely got different levels of maturity. But I think this also creates opportunities because when D is done well in one part of the state, the IT sets a precedent and lifts up the standard elsewhere. So I wouldn't say Queensland's radically different in its challenge.

Alex Harris

The regional spread and concentration of work definitely shapes how the is rolled out here.

Andrea Ciaffi

Queensland is such a large state with relatively small number of people.

Alex Harris

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

If you compare with other parts of the world where the density of population is

Alex Harris

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

a lot higher. In Queensland we don't have a lot of people considering the number. Consider the sides of the land. Even if Australians complaints about the the cost of the land.

Alex Harris

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

One of the things that we always talk about when we talk about digital engineering is the fact that all of the parties need to be aligned in terms of expectations. So how do you find the alignment between contractors, consultants and even the clients?

Andrea Ciaffi

Clients are critical in this in this in this puzzle, do you think that they are aligned with the expectation that we have for digital engineering at the moment or we need to educate them more?

Alex Harris

I I think most parties are generally aligned on the fundamentals, but the finer details there's definitely quite a lot of differences. Still, I think that's also partly because of like. We're we're shaped by our own experiences.

Alex Harris

So if your last major project was an infrastructure job working the standard set years ago, your expectations might be different to someone who's just starting on a new project with the latest requirements. And as you know, tools and processes change over time. So I think what used to feel like extra effort is now becoming standard practise.

Alex Harris

For example the ISO 9650 concept we just talked about earlier, like in managing clash detection, numbering documents correctly, embedding attributes. That no longer feels foreign, even though it may not be the default on projects. Umm. I guess to answer your question a bit more is breaking it down onto the specifics of the contractors.

Alex Harris

I think the tier ones are pretty well aligned across the board now. They're all doing very similar things. The tier twos that's I think that's at varying stages right now. We've got some like bilby. Investing in their own DE teams, which is great to see, others are still potentially relying on JV partners or subcontractors for delivery.

Alex Harris

Your smaller players like in the Tier 3 space probably aren't really in the BIM area yet. Simply just because the projects don't require it. Regarding consultants, they're pretty aligned. Like most special, they're mostly specialists in the domain, so if they don't stay current, they don't really remain competitive.

Alex Harris

If they're yeah, if they're not up to speed, they tend to fall behind quickly. And yeah, I think like you mentioned clients, well, I think that's where the alignment varies the most.

Alex Harris

Your state level bodies are increasingly pushing for D and VM adoption, but councils and spoiled clients are less consistent and like asset owners like a transporter, a water authority, they have very different needs and a long history of managing their assets, so their expectations differ.

Alex Harris

And private clients will they have their entirely different motivations. So I think the less developed clients will benefit from the broader state level momentum that we have as the business as usual shifts. I think D will become more embedded, whether it's formally mandated or not.

Alex Harris

Like back when I was at Hatch, we we modelled everything and even the deliverable was only two D it was more about ensuring things fit and were coordinated properly. So I think that infrastructure is getting close to that mindset. I think the 3D by default is nearly there.

Alex Harris

The basic attribution is following the the detailed LOI is still heavily reliant on client requirements though.

Andrea Ciaffi

Interesting. And one other aspects I would like to touch is the importance of having this experience that goes across multiple

Alex Harris

And so baby.

Andrea Ciaffi

disciplines because you have worked in plant layout, mechanical fabrication, you've done different things in your career. And I just wanted to ask you how how is your? Experience in other disciplines shaped your perspective on digital engineering.

Alex Harris

Yeah, I think my multi discipline experience has helped me look at things from different perspectives. When I was on the design side, I was, it was often smaller teams within a larger team. So there's that bit of friendly competition. Each discipline trying to carve out their part of the project.

Alex Harris

Everyone had a view on why their component need to occupy a certain space or have take priority. Some parts of the design just feel harder to shift. So maybe because they've always done things a certain way that all they're physically locked in early, that can lead to mindset that changes and always possible.

Alex Harris

But I've found that. Having those, those discussions of the right people and just a genuine airing of concerns can even even make the less flexible disciplines could provide options. And look, not everything can move.

Alex Harris

I understand that there are sometimes real constraints, but I think if there's that there's that genuine benefit to the project, if the conversation should at least be had to try and get to the bottom of some of these things, I think that kind of mindset of being open to discussions and.

Alex Harris

Compromise really stuck with me, like working across multiple distance taught me how to negotiate and find that common ground. Most people generally want to deliver the best project they can, but what's efficient for one group can create challenges for another. So. That's why coordination is so important.

Alex Harris

You can't afford to have teams working in silos, and I guess that same dynamic shows up in the DE space, too. Sometimes we're working to meet specific requirements that generally are hard to achieve, and it can feel rigid. But again, a good discussion usually helps.

Alex Harris

I I think a a healthy project is full of compromises and and when no one's willing to budget tends to hurt the outcome. So collaboration is is key.

Andrea Ciaffi

And do you find it easier to empathise with various stakeholders just because of your broad technical background? You understand them better? Maybe.

Alex Harris

Yeah. I I I think so. Like for instance for instance design and construction operate in a very different worlds construction often sits in the middle. Sometimes we're the client to the designer, sometimes we're just building what we've been given to us. Those relationships shift all the time depending on the type of contracts and how people move around.

Alex Harris

Like we mentioned earlier, like someone might be your client one day and then the design of the next like it's it's a very fluid industry I always. Try and look at things from the other person's perspective and having worked across different parts of the project life cycle really helps with that.

Alex Harris

I've been on the design side. I know how frustrating change can be, especially late change. I keep that in mind when I'm talking to designers. I also understand that some things are. Are more doable than others. Again, it's just all about having those conversations.

Andrea Ciaffi

Is there anything particular you have learned from your fabrication and plant layout days that still applies to the infrastructure?

Alex Harris

The fabrication work I did, I think really sharpened my eye for detail, especially around like QA of drawing production. I try not to get too deep into drawing reviews these days, but if I do spot something that I do tend to dig in and figure out what's going on.

Alex Harris

I'm sure I've annoyed a few designers who think the D guy shouldn't be checking drawings, but for me it's about making sure those doodles are consistent and reliable. It's a bit of a call back to that old advice and measure twice. Cut once a small mistake on a drawing can be that thread that unravels a whole bunch of other things.

Alex Harris

Umm. Yeah, as the yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's a good point, yeah. And one of the challenges we we see often is from being leaders is called digital engineer leaders is try to convince teams and even the leadership within the business to embrace new way of ways of working. Do you find that challenging?

Andrea Ciaffi

How do you convince them if you want to change things?

Alex Harris

Yeah, I think anyone who gets into the DE space quickly realises they've now become part salesman. I think a huge part of our job is trying to convince people to do something different and that is very difficult. Especially this this mindset. That it's always been done this way.

Alex Harris

This we know this works. Why change? So yeah, that is a hard part. But it's. Yeah, it's probably not the bit I enjoy the most is getting around going. Come on. Trust me, this is really good. I'd rather get on and just do it.

Alex Harris

But you really can't get on and do it until you've. Convince people that what you're doing is the right thing to do. So yeah, it's a very important part of the job.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And thinking about the future of Digi engineering, particularly infrastructure bar for small contractors like this Tier 2 contractors, what excite we touched about, we talked about AIA little bit, but what excites you the most about the future of the dual construction in this space?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Alex Harris

Yeah, definitely I I. But I guess apart from that we've we've got like. I I'm excited about some of the new players that are entering the market. We're we're not just dominated by the the big software vendors anymore, like they definitely take the lion's share of the market.

Alex Harris

But there's some small companies starting to challenge the status quo and bring some real value to projects. I think that competition is really healthy and it's pushing innovation, which is. That's great. Also pretty excited about the shift in education. Some of our younger engineers are starting to learn digital engineering concepts at university, which is, which is going to make a big difference on side.

Alex Harris

I'm hoping it leads to more local champions. There's people that are embedded in the project who really drive D forward because. Without them, D can end U being erceived as this thing off to the side, not really part of the roject, but when it's embraced locally it really becomes part of how we build.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And think about emerging technology. Is there any, is anything you are keeping an eye on at the moment? Do you want to share with us?

Alex Harris

My focus is largely around AI at the moment,

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. OK.

Alex Harris

but I guess some of the other things it's the gauzy and splats I think are pretty interesting. Don't ask me exactly how it all works, but that's around the photogrammetry or new way of doing photogrammetry basically. I think there's some real benefits there around the visual visualisation.

Alex Harris

Collaboration platforms are another area that I'm watching closely. There's there's a few solid ones out there already and others still finding their feet. I think that space is going to be get really competitive and which is good. And I guess from a lean to delivery mindset, I'm always looking for a new tool to make things work a little bit better.

Alex Harris

I'm particularly interested in, like bonsai at the moment. I haven't been able to give it too much space yet, but that's all around that. Working with IFC files and I think that's. I think in the in the near future there's going to be a lot more focus around that IFC deliverable, which I think is very interesting.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, thanks for that. So we are at the end of today's episode and this was a great episode. Alex, if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you?

Alex Harris

Just the normal ways, LinkedIn is probably the best to get me. I'll I'll try my best to respond. I'm not always the best at getting back to you straight away, but yeah, that's probably the easiest way.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Thanks Alex, Alex for sharing your practical advice and your point of view, particularly from this more contractors point of view with all of your experience even in larger companies as well. So thank you again.

Alex Harris

Thanks Andre. See ya.

Andrea Ciaffi

Bye.