Digital Engineering with Adam Favaloro

Andrea Ciaffi

Hi, Adam. Welcome to the Digital Construction podcast. How are you today?

Adam Favaloro

Good. Thank you for having me.

Andrea Ciaffi

Today we sit down with Adam Faloro. He is a digital leader. He has been. He has a long career at the moment, works at GHD, but will tell us a lot more about his career. I'm very excited to have this conversation with you, Adam today, but before we start, I want to ask you a couple of Ice Breakers.

Andrea Ciaffi

If you could have any superpowers to make a construction project go perfectly. What would that be?

Adam Favaloro

Super proud of my construction project goes smoothly or perfectly. Twice the programme we have at the beginning, so we could solve all the problems before they start on site. Every project we deliver these days is under a massive time crunch.

Adam Favaloro

We we never seem to have enough time to get it right in the beginning and we spend most of the time trying to get it resolve issues, either through the digital model doing things in BIM quickly and efficiently. Resolving unresolvable issues within the model before they do it on site.

Adam Favaloro

It's all in a matter of months, not what would be lovely if it takes five years to build a project, it'd be love to have five years to design it, but we try and squeeze it into 18 months in some cases, so my superpower make the programmes

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Adam Favaloro

twice as long, or at least have the ability to pre think about what these things are going to be and have them solve when they arise.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's good and I hope you can double the budget as well.

Adam Favaloro

Yeah, that's never gonna happen, right. We always work on that little percentage

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Adam Favaloro

of the overall project margin. And I don't think that's gonna grow anytime soon.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And if you think about your career, and I'm sure you've, you've had many mentors and you interacted with so many people. But if you think about the best piece of advice you've ever received in your career, what would that be?

Adam Favaloro

So. Yeah, I've hips and mentors along the way. Some really good ones, some not so good ones, but probably the best mentor I had to make sure you enjoy what you get, what you do, because we're gonna be doing it. You're gonna be doing it for a long time.

Adam Favaloro

And it's gonna consume a large chunk of your life. So if you don't enjoy it, it's gonna make it a really big task. And it's probably why I've so I've jumped around a bit in my career, and we could probably go into a bit further, but it's probably why I've started stated as a digital engineering lead because I really enjoy getting to see the things that.

Adam Favaloro

I've been involved in from tender through design and into construction, get built and make an impact on the world.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's great. Then at the moment you are aghd, but I always find useful to share with the audience how you end up in position. You are now because I found that the this digital career in construction, different people come from different angles.

Andrea Ciaffi

Can you share us? Can you share with us a little bit about your career and your journey?

Adam Favaloro

So what my my journey started out my family. Had a construction company or had a construction company where my father was still working and he wanted me to always become a builder. But I saw that as being too hard, too much manual work in the field.

Adam Favaloro

So I decided I wanted to do something different, something more design orientated, so studied as an able architecture. Thought about doing something with boats, realised there was no real money in that, and then ended up as a drafter in and around interior feed outs and stuff.

Adam Favaloro

Work my way up to be a senior senior drafter and sort of junior project manager and then jumped across into asset management with agility or ago. The gas company I worked there for a couple of years.

Adam Favaloro

Helping them map gas mains, getting a bit involved in GIS, getting a greater understanding of how what we do is drafters everyday has an impact on the greater community and then got really frustrated working there because. Systems didn't evolve quickly enough for a big organisation like that.

Adam Favaloro

They didn't. Necessarily use industry best practise or the best tools? I thought that by joining a consultant things would be a bit more fast-paced and we better make change in a lot more of a hurry. So make the jump across to becoming a consultant and that was probably.

Adam Favaloro

20/22/20 three years ago now. And then from there I think I joined MWH, which is now Stantec as the NSW lead. Not merely because they were a engineering organisation at the time that was already doing BIM, but we call it project information modelling.

Adam Favaloro

Everything they did was in 3D and that was really a passion of mine back then and doing everything, making sure we had fully coordinated designs and then spent a couple of years following the project work. Them in the water market or to move around and work in various parts of Australia.

Adam Favaloro

Left them and joined chapter primarily to continue working in the water market when Monty's watermarked slowed down. Led the APAC team at chapter again, doing everything in water and beam until the end of the water market. Peak in in Australia that we stopped the drought died when we it started raining, so they stopped spending money on water.

Adam Favaloro

Did some work with them through Perth and up into into Singapore and then. I think we won the two SD cell plant in Singapore and it was time for me to make a decision whether I moved to Singapore or stay in Australia and do something else.

Adam Favaloro

So then I joined GHD and started looking at transport as the next next big market to drag beam into. And so my life started with GHD and and we started what was then, I guess I joined GHD to start the. Central Station tender, which was probably the 1st.

Adam Favaloro

Foray into digital twins with transport producer Wales and Lang of rock and Oracom. We we took the journey on from there and built what's probably still considered one of the biggest, most complex digital twins for infrastructure transport project in in Australia with that project.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's great. I can see. I know you have worked on so many projects an. You you didn't make the list during this short introduction because I. Yeah, yeah,

Adam Favaloro

So it didn't make the list.

Andrea Ciaffi

yeah. It's very hard to make A to summarise a long career in just trying to answer a question. I'm I'm very interested to know your point of view around the role of digital engineering in the construction industry, so. It's particularly particularly in an infrastructure sector, which is where I think you work the most.

Adam Favaloro

Yeah. So. It's interesting, right? So digital engineering, I guess has evolved throughout that construction phase. When we first started talking about digital engineering or BIM in projects was really around helping the end user or the OR the plant operator visualise what we're giving them so that they could get on board with what we were designing before we designed it.

Adam Favaloro

So there's no point in building something that is not going to be feasible for the end operator to use. And that was really important when we're working with Sydney Water on around treatment plants. We're giving them enough space to operate a pump or to maintain a valve, or do that sort of thing, but now it's evolved a bit more.

Adam Favaloro

We've evolved through that sort of. End user stakeholder engagement piece. You'll transition through the public customer, stakeholder with all the visualisation stuff we did. In the sort of the mid to mid early to mid 2000s, we every project we did had massive customer stakeholder requirements.

Adam Favaloro

And you'd always be doing these visualisations and getting the community engagement or involvement in a project before we got to delivery and now we're transitioned into. We added all of this metadata for the into the projects into what becomes really a digital twin of the asset going forward for construction to use to help them facilitate the planning and delivery of the project.

Adam Favaloro

Then for it to be used as an asset at the end, which is where I say the the most impact of what we do now.

Adam Favaloro

If you're an asset owner, having that asset owner background, when I worked at AGL, if you could go and look at a model and know that it was maintained and up to date and be able to hand that to the next guy to do an upgrade on that project without having to spend thousands or millions of dollars on survey to verify the asset is as it was built.

Adam Favaloro

So you've locked three steps ahead before we start a project, whereas most of our projects these days we we go to go to site, we do a survey of the site, we build a model that takes hundreds of hours in some cases and and lots of dollars to build.

Adam Favaloro

Imagine if you're the asset owner, you can just hand here's my model. I'd like you to add two more platforms or another process unit onto the side of this go and it should be good to go. It would make a massive difference to the way we deliver our infrastructure in the future.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. Sorry, go.

Adam Favaloro

Save us lots of money. Lots of taxpayers dollars because 90% of infrastructure is funded by us, the public.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good point. I've seen an interesting evolution where for a long time we've been talking about how the digital side of engineering will help the design stage, but we're clearly missing the opportunity that we actually have after that, because the life of the asset is a lot longer than the the construction phase.

Andrea Ciaffi

So I'm glad that now that the transition the, the industry is finally maturing. And understanding that.

Adam Favaloro

But I think we're maturing very slowly that that bit beyond all the money is still in the construction phase, right? So we spend a lot of time and effort in building an asset. We're slowly transitioning into that next phase of how do you manage the asset after I think that's our biggest opportunity for growth as an industry is in that space.

Adam Favaloro

So I don't think we're we're not adopting it as quickly as we did digital engineering for construction or D for FMA and that sort of stuff.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's a very good point. I was about to ask you what, like, what do you think is the unique value that digital engineering brings to this major projects? Is it related to the asset management? Is it related to the design, the construction?

Adam Favaloro

Well, I think it comes. There's a couple of things we bring to the projects these days. I don't know that our our construction staff. Have the same level, the same upbringing that our old constructors used to have. So we 20 years ago, we used to produce 2D drawings and people could just work out the the the clashes in the Z plane.

Adam Favaloro

Everyone these days thinks or every app we have on our phone is in 3D. People think we should be designing in 3D. There's no excuse now for having a clash in the Z plane of elements. There's no overlapping of elements should be all resolved and I think.

Adam Favaloro

Owners from the construction to resolve that is now firmly back into the design space to resolve that for the construction team. And that has shifted the requirement for us to actually work in a more coordinated fashion in the ZED plane, which is where the digital model has sort of helped us.

Adam Favaloro

And as I said, there's always a crunch on programme and I think we can spend 1520 minutes resolving an issue in the model using the data within the model and the and the attributes within the model to try and resolve something for the construction team and it may save hundreds of hours in construction.

Adam Favaloro

But you know, if you change Central station, we change the wall type from. What would have been traditional block work walls to to a speedy panel solution which is a something that can be come on site and be erected within hours in hours without having to wait for concrete or mortar to go off and and get things done.

Adam Favaloro

That sort of stuff has significantly impacted the way we deliver projects. And we resolve all those problems for them on site. But then as we move into asset management and and those digital twins and how they'll be used in the future, I think the the potential is endless.

Adam Favaloro

I think there's massive potential for. As we move to the new ways of working and doing things differently. It'll be more the the model will become more of an information tool for those guys operating things in the future or managing the infrastructure. You know we used to have a facilities manager that would manage a building.

Adam Favaloro

Our facilities managers are across multiple buildings using the data within those models or the and from the operating assets to decide when to replace things instead of being there and replacing it the day after it breaks. So I think there's a whole lot of preventative stuff we can do with the data from the models that will change the way we do things in the future.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And if we try to think about the actual the challenges and the bottlenecks that digital engineering teams find from the company's point of view, I think during this podcast we touched a lot. We discussed a lot about the problems that people have from the like the manager point of view, and that's also something that's very, very interesting.

Andrea Ciaffi

I know you have experience about around like the budget constraints and how difficult it is to manage costs associated with digital tools and processes, or sometimes the misalignment, the misalignment between. Expedition between design, engineering and construction teams from your point of view, what are the key challenges that you find?

Adam Favaloro

I think we're all still struggling with the what does it? What does digital engineering mean for projects and how much value does it bring

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Adam Favaloro

versus what's the return on investment and how much should I invest? And even to this day, I have projects where we're given hours and hours to plan and forecast and and set up a project correctly and other projects with other project managers that we'll be just saying digital engineering is just an an add on cost to add no value to my project on.

Adam Favaloro

I'm not going, I'm not really going to give you many hours and just deliver what you have to as a bare minimum.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Adam Favaloro

There's always that tension around. Am I? Am I adding value to a project? Is the value realised by the project? Was did I win about? Did I win the the war with the project manager to get enough time and enough things to make digital engineering available addition to the project that we're delivering and it it all changed depending on the type of project which goes along.

Adam Favaloro

The other things we still struggle with is people are not very good at change.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Adam Favaloro

But by their very nature. All humans, and I think that if even if you weren't talking about digitally about anything else, we're very slow to accept change. And we're asking, and for many years we've been asking people to change the way they work in engineering, and we're making that change now probably faster than we ever did before.

Adam Favaloro

But it's probably still, you're still going to bang heads with the senior reviewers and the principals that need to sign off on their stuff at the very at the very end of the process. So educating them in the process and how you got to where you were or from where you were to where we are now.

Adam Favaloro

There's always been a an interesting journey or conversation depending on the project. And then my last one is my pet hate on every project we produce so many drawings for the sake of producing drawings. Why? Why? Would I was talking about it with the civil team around a treatment plant.

Adam Favaloro

We delivered the other day and we have these beautiful drawings and there's like 400 drawings for some roads around this treatment plant. The drawings were correct and perfectly fine. There's engineers that have signed off the drawings as being correct, but the surveyors don't use the drawings to set out the roads.

Adam Favaloro

They use the curb strings from the model export and we had five inconsistencies in

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Adam Favaloro

the curb strings where the curb strings weren't aligned as they went round the curb return. So there were there were five rejections from all of this effort we put into producing all these drawings and no one's ever looked at the drawings. They weren't the bin.

Adam Favaloro

They basically used the the curb return export exports as a string. If I had to set it out and that's all they've used on the site. So what was the value of the drawing?

Andrea Ciaffi

It's interesting transition from different way of delivering projects and and these drawings are something that we've been delivering for a long time.

Adam Favaloro

Still bound to contractually, but we need to change those that might that thinking.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, many people say ideally we just deliver models. What do you think about that?

Adam Favaloro

I think we're still somewhere in between, but I think there's there's certainly massive opportunities to to reduce the number of drawings we produce and add more value where where it's where it's suitable.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And sometimes when you think about producing drawings or producing models like you'd rather do standardised digital practises across multidisciplinary teams like how do you achieve that like it could be challenging sometime.

Adam Favaloro

Extremely challenging in this current environment with everyone using different offering packages and. But I think as an industry we've got pretty good at standardising sporting packages across a discipline across the industry. But then from discipline from discipline in the project team. Structure will use one package.

Adam Favaloro

Sybil will use something different. Process mechanical. We use something different in building services. We'll use maybe get back to Revit the same as the structural team. We have, we can have this consistent suite of differing authoring applications that make life really hard as it's been managed to have consistent ways of working and even a consistent common data environment across the project.

Adam Favaloro

On on the big ones. So I just I've just worked on a couple. Well,

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's.

Adam Favaloro

my last couple of projects have all been joint ventures and I'm I'm surprised about the level of alignment between. The Big 5 engineering firms on the software packages we use for structural design building services. Plants and mechanical and then civil.

Adam Favaloro

But for those four or five disciplines, they're all using, two of them are using Revit, the rest are all on different offering packages depending on the the resource availability. And it makes it impossible to get things to to be seen with on a project.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. When we were offline, you mentioned that Revit is not exactly your favourite tool. You want to expand on that.

Adam Favaloro

Well, so I guess. Rabbit is a good tool for for vertical infrastructure and but we we now use it for so much more than just vertical infrastructure. We're using it on now the Western tunnel package, which I'm currently digital leading.

Adam Favaloro

We we use it for developing tunnel models, so we've modelled every tunnel ring within the tunnel and that's a long geometric shape where we've used Revit along the way. We've found some bugs we have. We've broken the tunnels down into what we thought would be suitable, and then we've broken them down again throughout the project to try and make it even easier.

Adam Favaloro

To make what we thought what what we perceived from reading the client's standard to be the client's requirements. But we've constantly been challenged with the size of the file and how much we can squeeze into the file. But it's been really good in doing the metadata.

Adam Favaloro

So maybe we went really hard on the software for the wrong reason and we were targeting metadata, population as a primary reason and the interfaces with other elements and trying to standardise a software package. Across the project where we had a whole lot of, we have a whole lot of structural packages that are almost vertical infrastructure in the ground.

Adam Favaloro

So they were easy, they worked really well in Revit, whereas the curve tunnel alignments were not quite as easy to run and there was a whole lot of things that we generated or found along the way and learnt through experience where the deficiencies, the software or even our modelling techniques in modelling some of the stuff.

Adam Favaloro

Came back.

Andrea Ciaffi

Something good or for others that's to take note and make sure that they improve

Adam Favaloro

Oh yeah, and the other one with everybody is

Andrea Ciaffi

the the product.

Adam Favaloro

interoperability. Inability to, I mean, that's probably the big difference between order. So order Discon Bentley is the number of native authoring packages that have a different native format versus Bentley are pretty good at. Everything's in dgn, you know whether they'll talk is one thing, but they're all in dgn.

Adam Favaloro

So the the referencing of the of the multidisciplinary project. Is. It's something that I'm a firm believer in the whole project team. If we could, if from a singular project from a single organisation or or models live link and have the fight the the active fight around design coordination.

Adam Favaloro

Back in my montage days, we used to have the war room and we used to put all the modellers structural, civil and mechanical in one room, live linking their models together, and the modellers would fight over my pipe needs a penetration that will.

Adam Favaloro

My driveway's below or above your your slab surface. The design coordination sort of happened by by its very nature in the design office 'cause they'd have those active fights instead of weddings for the Federated model to come out of Adam on a Friday.

Adam Favaloro

But be nice to get back to that state. I don't know if it will work on a project with 100 people, but it, but it would be nice to have that thought that we could all work that way.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, use some good lessons from the past and implement it today.

Adam Favaloro

Yeah, but it's hard now. Everything's so much bigger as well.

Andrea Ciaffi

Definitely. Another thing, yeah, another thing that makes probably the video, the project hard is budget budget limitations. So I know that we all want to deliver the best project from the digital engineering point of view, doing using all of the SMARTS and the tools.

Andrea Ciaffi

But from your point of view, how do you adjust the implementation of a digital strategy? Considering the budget limitations you may have on different projects.

Adam Favaloro

It again, it's about maximum bang for Buck to suit the project requirement, so we'll we'll tailor our our our digital solution depending on the type of project, what and even reviewing what are the risks, what are the potential risks of someone doing this project in just two day.

Adam Favaloro

Let's just say it's a pipeline down the side of a road or a footpath. Is there any value in doing that in digital, probably not. So we'll park it on that one and we'll we'll let the project management have their win on that one.

Adam Favaloro

But on something more complex. Like a tunnel interface with three other buildings. We might go. This is where you want to spend all your dollars on digital engineering, Mr Project manager, because the risk to your project. Something goes wrong in this space.

Adam Favaloro

Means that we should probably focus primarily on that area and ignore the other areas in the project, and it's more of a risk versus reward sort of an scenario where we try and try and influence the project managers to give US budget to, to manage risk with that money.

Andrea Ciaffi

Definitely in terms of like I know you have a lot of experience in recruiting and organising teams and to deliver projects, but even within the the business. I would like to know, from your point of view, our company, our should company structure, digital engineering team to be most effective like you can think about that as an organisation chart.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's complex because I've seen that it keeps evolving as the discipline evolves like we are drafters and then we are beam modellers and now we have digital

Adam Favaloro

Digital engineering leads or or, so it's interesting so.

Andrea Ciaffi

engineers.

Adam Favaloro

It it judge that we've gone through a couple of iterations that even in the GHD when I joined GHD as a digital engineering lead, I lived in the project management team because we needed to influence the project managers and design managers on using digital engineering to help them deliver coordinated designs in their projects.

Adam Favaloro

Once we sort of had the wins on the board in that space, I transitioned and we we built what we now call the digital delivery team. Where all the modelling resources lived in the one team to try and drive that project coordination piece where one person as a as a business group manager was across 50 modellers and drafters.

Adam Favaloro

They're all working on various projects indifferently. When a group of them are working together, you can drive them to coordinate better because you're in that team. How's that work for what we do in the future? I'm not sure, because maybe we've broken the connection with the engineers by bringing them all.

Adam Favaloro

So we brought them out of them engineering groups into their core, digitally regroup and their relationship with the engineer may have suffered from that. Maybe they need to get back to the engineering groups. It's a it's an interesting one and I think it's an evolving dynamic where we have to continue to tweak that.

Adam Favaloro

And then when we end up with a major projects team. I still love the idea of getting the whole major projects team in an office together. It probably will never happen again after COVID. So before COVID central station.

Adam Favaloro

We had 60% of the models and drafters that delivered on that project would at least spend three days a week together on a floor in Sydney working collaboratively together face to face. They were the guys in Hong Kong and South Africa and Brisbane.

Adam Favaloro

Brisbane would bring down occasionally, but South Africa and Hong Kong would only be by teams. But you know we we did our best to make sure people. Put together face to face. Maybe I'm still old school in that regard. Future projects that won't happen.

Adam Favaloro

I just. I know that won't happen. We we build teams virtually these days. And getting the best out of people virtually is still, I think, something the industry needs to work on.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, probably every, every in this thing. It's just that ****, massive change in the way people work.

Adam Favaloro

I don't even think it's a massive change the way people. I think it's the way we communicate. I don't think we adjusted yet. Although the younger generation seems to adjusted to teams really well. I think the seniors and middles haven't quite caught up with that way of communicating or aren't quite used to it and we're losing a bit of that communication or free sharing of information.

Andrea Ciaffi

Even like finding the right way to mentor people that are not sitting next to you, it's a big challenge for the more experienced people in the team, I guess.

Adam Favaloro

It is and, and we're constantly. So the Sydney sort of leadership team around digital delivery, we're constantly sitting there challenging ourselves and how do we mentor the next cadet drafter? Or the middle the the drafter that we've hired that now sits in the Philippines.

Adam Favaloro

How do you mentor that person if you cannot just hear their conversation when you're sitting beside them or or lean over the wall and have a look at what they're doing in the computer screen, it's really difficult.

Andrea Ciaffi

Definitely. And we we already mentioned that the the discipline is has evolved and we people were drafted before and now digital engineering digital leads like we call it the way you like but.

Adam Favaloro

There's still a lot of people that want to call themselves just drafter and ignore the digital engineering aspect of it.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But from your point of view, what are the skills that are not negotiable for the profession? Like, if you want to start this profession, if if you already are in this profession, what are the skills that you should really have?

Adam Favaloro

But it's an interesting one, I think. Understanding I think to be a good digital engineer, you really need to understand the element you're involved in. The design of, sort of, how it's constructed. So much of what we do these days is.

Adam Favaloro

Is reflecting the the construction of that design in a model, so it it helps to be sort of familiar with the construction processes and they've had some sort of exposure to those construction techniques before you get involved in delivering a project.

Adam Favaloro

A lot of we see a lot of things these days where you know you've got a model construction joints in a slab or or fabrication, spools of a pipe. When we're when we're delivering stuff and it really helps to to make sure you understand that.

Adam Favaloro

The other thing is to be able to be an extrovert and be able to openly communicate with teams. A lot of digital design people or drafters were introverts that just sat there on the drawing board and did what the engineer. Sent us in a red pen mark up.

Adam Favaloro

I think that has changed forever. Now we we have to interact more with the people around us and and elicit information, solicit information from them to be able to produce the quality design. We're not necessarily going to get a red pen mark up if there's not a drawing.

Adam Favaloro

And that's so far down the chain now that it's probably a waste of time to wait till that drawing is produced to get engineering mark up. You need to get their engagement on the model and and drive that coordination piece.

Adam Favaloro

So I think being a little bit extroverted, having a good understanding of thing you're you're designing and how it's constructed just like it used to as a drafter. A key skills. But then a bit more drive to try and do things better, quicker, faster as well.

Adam Favaloro

So always always challenging the software or the way we do things, the workflows. I don't think what we did 20 years ago is we're certainly not the same as it is today. But I think what we do today we'll necessarily be the same thing we do in five years time or 10 years time.

Andrea Ciaffi

Some of them will say it will probably say where do I find the time to experiment? New stuff. If I'm believing projects right? This is one of the classic objections.

Adam Favaloro

That's the that's always the class of rejection, but it's, you know, if you spend 5 minutes looking for something or asking Co pilot a question and it saves 30 minutes out of tomorrow's task, it was it very well spent. Time well spent, I think so.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. No, I agree totally. I think it's always important to experiment and try to find new solution. It's an investment you do for yourself and for your team.

Adam Favaloro

It is self investment and you change the business, you crack something. You could change the business.

Andrea Ciaffi

Definitely. And do you find like big gaps with these kids when you try to hire for new people? Like is it hard?

Adam Favaloro

It's very it's well, I think. What we've done as an industry, especially within APEC or Australia and New Zealand. Is maybe 15 years ago we went down the model of overseas low cost resource centres. And that has left a massive a hole in the middle of our industry and the the sort of the the five to 15 year mark of experience.

Adam Favaloro

And it's really hard to find those people with the five to 15 years experience. You know the ones that we need to mental the the really junior ones coming through. You don't want to have your 2530 year experience Guy mentoring cadet. You want him to be mentoring someone in the middle and then the cadet being

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Adam Favaloro

mentored by the the one from the middle, passing his knowledge down and at the moment we really struggle to find those that 5 to 15 year experience Mark. In the industry, which I think is having and I know all of our competitors talking the same stuff, that's having a bit of a bit of an impact on the way we deliver projects, I think.

Andrea Ciaffi

One like the gap that we have created because of this idea of outsourcing, it's very interesting and if if you had an opportunity to speak with somebody that is starting now, their career in digital engineering, what advice would you give to them?

Adam Favaloro

We do that, we've got, we've got a couple of in the last five years we've hired 10 or so cadets. So we've always want to educate those guys, but it is about. We learned the art of drafting. I think we're also losing that as a bit of a skill.

Adam Favaloro

Everyone comes straight out of their cadet or being an apprentice, drafting and learning how to use AutoCAD to I should be a modeller. We still have to produce a constructible drawing that is clear and concise,

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Adam Favaloro

and that is a skill that I think the industry as a whole is losing, so they should learn that as a first skill, then get some understanding of how things are constructed on site and then get into the model and then once you proficient model and understand them how to produce quality deliverables and modelling, that's when I guess the career pathway.

Adam Favaloro

I get to choose and there's probably a fork in there at that point. Do you want to go down the path of being management or is there a role for a technical specialist going forward? And I think though maybe hopefully in the future, there are the two career paths that will still exist in the industry in you know in.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's interesting. I think probably they need to also be ready and adjust and continuously evolve because the industry has changed so quickly in the last two decades.

Adam Favaloro

It's massive change, but it started out well when I started work. There was still a drawing board in the drawing and the drafting Office I started in that might not have been two decades ago, but it wasn't much more than that. And today we don't even have long plotters anymore.

Adam Favaloro

We don't even print drawings in in A1 format. So massive change for an industry. Realistically,

Andrea Ciaffi

With me.

Adam Favaloro

when you think in 25 years we've gone through that much change, that's pretty big.

Andrea Ciaffi

And it isn't a long time ago that people were still very sceptical around. 3D products like rabid, yeah.

Adam Favaloro

We still, we still have those, the sceptics, and they've been the Business Today.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. They'll see around.

Adam Favaloro

They still exist right then and maybe I don't have. We really have. We really got completely over the hurdle with that's not still the question.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's very interesting. And sometimes I want to touch a point on clients. Sometimes these people are on the client side and you need to demonstrate the value of digital engineering and the output and the outcome of the work of the digital engineering team to clients.

Andrea Ciaffi

So how do you how do you manage that? How do you make sure that they understand the value even if these clients are not necessarily digitally mature, I would say.

Adam Favaloro

That's interesting cuz like they're usually the last ones to change. And even though we have transport, who's done all that work in writing a digital engineering framework around how they want their projects delivered? The project manager that's engaged to deliver their project still doesn't understand the value of the digital model versus the to the liberal.

Adam Favaloro

And and there are some prime examples that you had on a fortnight ago. He and I both worked on sections of the M12, which was probably the first transport NSW implementation. On a roads based project we were on competing teams.

Adam Favaloro

We now work for the same company after that project, but we both built full digital twins of basically the roadway we developed on behalf of that client which was transport. They then procured the road with some constructors. The models are not being updated post AFC.

Adam Favaloro

It was the cost involved was perceived to be too much, so they're just updating the drawings. All that work we put into the model is now wasted. Why did we don't all that effort during design?

Adam Favaloro

Or do we throw it in the bin because the project director decided it was too busy, too expensive when they got to the got to the point where the contractors were obligated to do it? I don't know, but I think we always it's our job as digital engineering leads and as designers to sell the benefit to our clients and and depending on the client will always be.

Adam Favaloro

Trying to trigger the next change in the industry, we've done some stuff with Sydney water on a couple of projects where. At the end of producing a digital twin for the construction of their projects, their systems aren't quite up to speed of how to manage that.

Adam Favaloro

So we sort of challenged through the RFI process and a bit of an education process for their teams. Instead of me giving you bound CAD files from all the Revit models and all the plant ready models, how about we give you the models and PD FS and we show you how to store the models and maybe get them updated by the next person.

Adam Favaloro

So there's opportunities to ask with the right clients whether they take the feedback on it. The next question. Is still work in progress, but you know that people are accepting change these days and we're starting to think about the change.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's great. And that's a very, very smart, smart way to do that. But do you have any other strategies to showcase the long term benefit of a well executed digital workflow?

Adam Favaloro

That we've, we've we've done plenty of presentations to clients about the the ongoing work flows of using the digital digital models from you know pre concept design through detailed design construction and into asset management. But I think the industry is still struggling with.

Adam Favaloro

That the the cost involved in that imposition in in managing that process all the way through. And where does it add value? Because we're always we're always trying to spend get maximum value for the buck today. And the perception of what happens in 20-30, forty years time, and if I spent 10 more dollars today, what does it give me down the track?

Adam Favaloro

I don't think we've got that sort of foresight yet, especially in a government infrastructure sort of sort of space where they might not be in government in that period of time.

Andrea Ciaffi

Definitely. And do you think that the the client's expectations at the end end up shaping the evolution of this industry, how DJ engine services are delivered like there is an important role for the clients?

Adam Favaloro

There is an important role of the client. I think the clients have done a fair bit of the shaping and it's now left. It's probably back a little bit now court to try and shape it back. I think we're all very as an industry we're very slow to adopt change.

Adam Favaloro

We have a contractual mechanism and we do the bare minimum. It's that contract. That's just where there's no reward for doing something different or doing something or changing industry. But basically, we're all challenged to do the most with the least amount of money.

Adam Favaloro

I think maybe the way we procure projects has to change whether that value can seep back in. I think in the late 90s, early 2000s we we did a lot more stuff in alliances where it was best for industry, best for project, best for client.

Adam Favaloro

Maybe we spent a little bit more on those projects, but the long term gain for the industry and the project and the client was significant more than what we do today under the DNC sort of realm where we operate.

Andrea Ciaffi

And we are close to the end. I would like to talk about the future of DJ engineering. From your point of view. What trends do you believe will be most significant to shape the future of DJ engineering in the future?

Adam Favaloro

It's interesting. So as the service on that fghd that's part of my role is to sort of identify those trends and try and make us at least be widing writing on the frontage of those. Those waves have changed and it's an interesting one when we get to digital engineering.

Adam Favaloro

I think machine learning, AI and even a large language models I think are going to have an influence on the way we work in the future. I'll be. It's starting to see it's sleeping to some of the stuff in some of the modelling applications, but I think there's a massive some massive growth to happen in that space.

Adam Favaloro

Computational design and and that sort of stuff is already in there, but it's how do we. Use machine learning or AI to do quality quantitive cheques about drawings so that we don't have to have someone doing a drafting or or modelling check it into the process.

Adam Favaloro

Is there the ability for it to do you know, tell it to grab the standard notes from the last 10 drawings and build a new structural general notes page. For me it's those sorts of things I think will have a massive impact for the next 5 to 10 years and then beyond that who knows.

Adam Favaloro

Hopefully I'm retired by that point. We're doing something different.

Andrea Ciaffi

You don't know why. Nowhere to be found.

Adam Favaloro

Sitting sitting back as a BGL or something different, and not necessarily, maybe that'll be my time to to step back out of the industry and just manage the people. Who knows? Who knows?

Andrea Ciaffi

One big one is the push towards open standards and interoperability. Do you have an opinion on that?

Adam Favaloro

I think I I think they're all massive requirements of the industry that would make our jobs a holidays year, especially as each on on multidisciplinary projects. I think. Software vendors are all saying the right things about their working towards it. I don't know if it's if we're really working towards it.

Adam Favaloro

We we talk about IFC is the Industry Foundation and classification. The common format, but no one's talking about how do we edit those if CS, the next time the model gets updated, that is not even on the radar yet. So. What is the improbability really mean?

Adam Favaloro

Back in the day when we did Dwgs and dgns, you could link the two together and sort of make it work in a CAD software. We've got a long way from that with our modelling based applications. It'd be nice to think we'll get back to there someday, but I think it's a massive undertaking for our software vendors.

Adam Favaloro

I'm not even sure it's impossible. They've gone so far down down the path of where we are. It would be lovely to see it, but I don't think we'll see it in my career.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's it's interesting because these software vendors, now they have their monopoly of the of their own space and.

Adam Favaloro

But even but even their own, like even the monopoly of their space, they still can't even get like it's taken a long time to get symbols ready to talk to Revit. Play it's just the way they they they're not building from the core.

Adam Favaloro

They're requiring from the outside in, so it's very hard to rewrite those softwares to be able to accommodate the things that they've acquired from other spaces. And I know what it is. They're doing great stuff with ACC sort of making it interoperable within the ACC environment.

Adam Favaloro

But how do we get, you know, civil 3D layout, 3D rabbit to talk to each other. That's something I'm consistently asking from our from our account perspective. Help me with this space. It'll be lovely to see, but but again it's a it's a big challenge and it's a we've added the Z value.

Adam Favaloro

We've added a whole lot of other data into those models now and a whole lot of other intelligence. We're asking them a lot to try and get that back to a standard platform.

Andrea Ciaffi

I really like your view because it's a very balanced view. The type of balance that comes with experience and maybe you've been excited about many things for many times and now we are more balanced.

Adam Favaloro

But but yeah, I've been through the. I've been through the motions enough times to know where we, you know, there's some things we can make a change on.

Adam Favaloro

And there's some things we can't. And I think, you know from it, from an industry point of view, I think it's back now to us to make a change around digital engineering and driving the next, the next round of change. I think our clients have done as much as they can do what they said of a, you win, it's now back to us as an industry.

Adam Favaloro

To either advocate for change or or help change the construction contracts and get more from them what we do.

Andrea Ciaffi

Is that something that? Selects sites you a lot about DG engineers an opportunity for the future.

Adam Favaloro

Is a tool to get projects complete. I still want to leave my footprint on the world so you know. I really get a buzz out of being involved in the big projects. Yeah, Central station, Western Sydney airport, those big projects. For 20 years I've basically worked in the in the backroom on water treatment plant projects where my children could never get involved in those projects.

Adam Favaloro

Why buzz these days is, you know, my kids can actually say, oh, look, that's a project you delivered. It's like, thanks kids. I've only done this for 25 years and you finally found one. But, you know, having that having that impact on the world is is a bigger change to me than, you know, producing a cool model.

Adam Favaloro

But, you know, they couldn't build that. Cool train station or the cool airport without the models that our teams produce, they're leading those teams. You know that be a contribution to the

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Adam Favaloro

bigger picture.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's amazing. Thank you. Adam, this was a great episode and thank you for making the time to meet me.

Adam Favaloro

Thank thank you for having me. It's good.