Law and Digital Transformation in Construction with Veer Dhaliwal

Andrea Ciaffi

Welcome to the Digital Construction podcast. How are you today?

Veer Dhaliwal

Good. How are you going, Andrea? It's been a while.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Very good, very good. So in this episode, we sit down with beer.

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Daliwal Beer was named a finalist at the 2024 Thirty under 30 Construction and infrastructure lawyer of the Year. He worked for transfer for news of 12 Arab and today we're going to talk about the legal aspects related to. Transformation we can share with us a little bit of his career journey later on,

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

but before we start be I have a nice breaker, a nice breaker question for you.

Veer Dhaliwal

Mm hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received in your career?

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah. Well, I'll be very simple and and and transparent. The simplest piece of advice and the best piece of advice I've ever gotten is if you don't ask,

Andrea Ciaffi

I say jobs.

Veer Dhaliwal

you don't get and if you yes, in jobs, if it's in terms of career. In terms of asking the right questions, don't be afraid to be open, vulnerable and asking, you know, hard questions.

Andrea Ciaffi

Beautiful. Thanks. Yeah, I've heard this from Steve Jobs as well. There is an interesting video on YouTube. I think it's called Steve Jobs asks or

Veer Dhaliwal

Mm hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

something like that where he says something like that about Siri. Yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's a very, very good piece of advice. But Bill,

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

can you start telling us a little bit of your about your career journey and? Led you to work in to the digital into the legal space for the construction industry.

Veer Dhaliwal

OK, so for me throughout my career it's been peppered with intellectual property, work and experience. Funny enough, although I'm a lawyer, I was always meant to be a lot an engineer. I started engineering. And then switch to law and science and that's where I picked up intellectual property.

Veer Dhaliwal

And I've, you know, made my way to organisations such as Balkan or lawyers, Northrop Grumman in defence and then on to Arab. Engineering services. So that's a global Tier 1 organisation that provides design engineering services. And then I went on to transport yourselves of one of the most recent organisations that I've worked for.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's very good. Yeah. Although you are relatively young,

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

you have a very interesting career and yeah, your skills are very valuable.

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

So it's interesting because today we talk about the digital transformation from a

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

different point, different point of view, which is the legal aspect. But just to start from your point of view, why should construction professionals and being manager care about the legal aspects related to the digital construction? Because I don't know if it's obvious, but I just want to know your opinion about that.

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. Well, that's a great question. Digital construction and and and BIM, I think that what we're talking about it is just a, you know isn't just a design tool anymore, it's it's a shared digital environment that's part of you know your contracts and your liabilities and risk exposures and those frameworks that you operate.

Veer Dhaliwal

In it's pivotal in terms of driving innovation forward for the industry, for example, if. Organisations and clients want to own IP. It may, you know, withhold innovation in the industry and it's pivotable to creating master, you know buildings and etcetera, something that's unique and you'll see there is.

Veer Dhaliwal

In Dubai, for example, or in the UK, the Shard, those require all BIM and master planning to take place. Understanding the legal environment of how they help protect the project and the field behind it turns, you know, collaborative. Environments into clarity instead of confusion or claims that may arise later on after the project and Ben's very pivotal to that.

Veer Dhaliwal

But there's a real environment model that exists.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's very good. Then have you. You've been helping companies, you've been helping government agencies. I'm sure you've seen some challenges,

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

but what are some of the biggest challenges that you've seen companies face when it's about developing, be more digital tools?

Veer Dhaliwal

Well, in terms of, I guess the biggest problems or challenges or headaches, I'd say it would be in relation to data ownership, who actually owns the model or the IP,

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

who gets to use it after a project ends, who who, who really owns it? Is it a client? Is it the contractor or the consultant? Or is it the person who created it and the models themselves? Or is it open source and no one owns it and they can freely commercialise?

Veer Dhaliwal

Secondly, it's around liability if someone, for example, relies on a model data or a model. And it turns out to be wrong. Who's actually on the hook? Who's going to be able to be, you know, liable? Who can the client or the the end client or the government claim against if something's wrong, for example, misalignment of bridges that.

Veer Dhaliwal

That's something that's probably been the news recently or may not be on projects. Then there's IP protection, particularly when there's multiple parties and that contribute to one Federated model. And finally, you know actual clarity on contract terms, lots of contracts.

Veer Dhaliwal

Just aren't built and they don't. They're not actually implicit or explicit in terms of the digital workflows, and keeping those in mind of how does BIM actually form part of the contract? Is it at at project inception or is it after, from my understanding anyway, it's generally after the project kicks off.

Veer Dhaliwal

Is what's the protections around all the liabilities and risk profiles and exposure? How's it actually curtailed and made bespoke for the actual contract, whether it's been involved? So addressing these head on it is you know something that we should stay on top of.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good point. And at the beginning of your answer, you touched on IP rights, intellectual property.

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

I want to ask you the straight question. Who owns the beam model?

Veer Dhaliwal

Mm hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Is it the designer, the contractors, the project, the owner who owns it?

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah. Huh. Well, that's a that's a very pointed question. It's very loaded as well. It really depends. It really depends on. I know it's a typical legal lawyer response.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

It really depends on the contract. The actual terms and how BIM is being expressed or incorporated, but it's generally the personal company creates a piece of work, owns the copyright as you would know, in Australia it's actually. Established that it's at creation, it doesn't have to be assigned or etcetera, but with them it's it's a collaborative environment as you would know.

Veer Dhaliwal

So you might have designers, engineers, contractors and even asset managers all collaborating and contributing to the actual bin model. So best practise. I'd suggest is to, you know, clarify this at Project conception and spell out who owns what, who has a right to use what, and under what conditions.

Veer Dhaliwal

So what model, what type of IP for example, and for example. Does a client get a licence to use the model or do they have full ownership? Or is it a perpetual licence so they can continue to use the model? Can they modify it?

Veer Dhaliwal

These are things that matter a lot later on, once the project's on foot or the project has been completed.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's a very good point is things you need to set up and there is no clear answer. You need to. It depends on how you write the documents.

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

I guess. What are from your point of view, the legal risks that we have when we share B models, because we have these files as you

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

mentioned, multiple people working on multiple multiple files. And now we share these files and sometimes there is things that people

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

should know. So what are the legal risks that you see?

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. OK. So again, I can all. No, not just the depends.

Andrea Ciaffi

It depends.

Veer Dhaliwal

It all begins at the start of the journey. That first conversation that you have it either under a confidential agreement NDA or just a coffee. Is how does the project start? Is there a framework? What are the contract terms and having the right IP causes in their licences and usage rights defined.

Veer Dhaliwal

Clearly you need to think practically at the start. And limit basically editable rights to only the people that can edit and in terms of the files you know, watermarking them if they're in draught or protected, it shouldn't be and it's to be best practises to maintain a controlled environment that's collaborative enough to share.

Veer Dhaliwal

With one party or the other, and you when you're working across multiple companies, joint ventures or large, you know, government to client and shared environments, it's really important to set the ground rules for IP early on and it could be in terms of a BEP or a BIM execution plan.

Veer Dhaliwal

At the beginning, generally it's after the fact though that's that's the realistic and practical application of of BIM and management of BIM rights. And who owns and who shares and who collaborates, that's? I understand it's it's after the fact, but. I'd love for the, you know, the industry to get to a point in terms of IP and SMARTS.

Veer Dhaliwal

And then being one part of them that we think about these future innovations well ahead because it does lead to greater innovation. If there is understanding either it's. Licenced or full ownership or assignment of ownership of IP which includes their models.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good point. And I feel like after this explanation, the best, the best way to protect yourself is to speak with somebody like you, speak to a lawyer before you start the project and and then assume that you get it right.

Veer Dhaliwal

Well. Yeah. So I'm quite passionate about IP and SMARTS, and I've seen that in multiple industries that, for example, department, defence. When I used to work for novsk ROM and there was a pilot programme for IP and they actually changed the regime IP regime, which means that they changed it.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

Full ownership to just pure licencing, so the actual creator or the contractor or the consultant now if you're working defence contracts can actually own the IP and all they do is give them a broad licence. To the government that way it doesn't inhibit smarts or innovation and collaboration in the industry, which is what, you know, defence just does so well.

Veer Dhaliwal

And I'd love to see that one day in, in construction, engineering, manufacturing. And you know, infrastructure that environment that the IP regime model changes, it's from full ownership of everything and just putting it on the shelf because we paid for it, we'll put it on the shelf.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

We can do whatever we want from that mindset to you can have full ownership, but give us the broadest licence and a perpetual licence to maintain that. That would be the best outcome for the industry.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, there. Yeah, that's great. And another terms that we probably people

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

don't mention often is the fitness for purpose in beam and probably people,

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

people developing beam models working on projects that are not maybe necessarily

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

thinking about this specific definition but. Can you explain to us what fitness for purpose means in the context of beam and

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

and digital models?

Veer Dhaliwal

One second. Yes, it's really finish with purpose is a really important term. It's a term that implies deliverable will perform exactly as it's intended, but it won't be you know what's. Up to someone's skill or their understanding of you know what's required. Rather, it's exactly as it's been described.

Veer Dhaliwal

Not just. Yeah, it was creative for with, you know, skill and care and with duty of care of an engineer. So for example, if a BIM model is used to fabricate, you know components and something lightly off slightly off like, I don't know, a millimetre or or centimetres for example, that'd be quite a lot.

Veer Dhaliwal

If it's centimetres even slightly, you could face a claim if the model was contractually meant to be fit for. Use so in in in the contract. If it's a BIM models are to be fit for

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

purpose, then they have to be exact and BIM models are like they are very, they're down to the micro millimetre and so on. So you work in a digital environment. You can specify as small as you like, or as large as you like.

Andrea Ciaffi

Very good point. Yeah. Sorry God.

Veer Dhaliwal

And if someone's and so again so again, contracts are just, you know, they need to clarify whether a model is for coordination, for reference or for construction. What is it actually for? And you can, you know, include disclaimers in the in the models itself, which doesn't necessarily protect you.

Veer Dhaliwal

Just just so that you know, caveats and and disclaimers don't necessarily protect you. Instead, IP should be very particular and reviewed by, you know, a specialist like myself.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

All yourself, in collaboration and understanding, what's the end goal? What do we want to do? What do we want to protect? And these are some of the risks that will come up. Fitness with purpose is it should be subject to your skill.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. What are the legal implications? Like, somebody's been working on a project. They don't they they build this digital

Veer Dhaliwal

Mm hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

asset. It's it could be a digital twin. And what what can possibly happen if the

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

model doesn't meet the its intended function?

Veer Dhaliwal

Well, some of I guess some of the disputes or claims that I've seen in the past in recent times is some of the common problems is models being used for purposes they weren't intended for,

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

conflicting information between the model versions that you know. What type bin level it is and so on. It just doesn't correlate or you know mesh together.

Veer Dhaliwal

Delay claims from incorrect data being provided in a model, so if someone were to finish with purpose again and relying on that if they were relying on a piece of model and they had a time frame or programme to meet for construction or or otherwise.

Veer Dhaliwal

And it was delayed because it was an incorrect model, one that delayed. Then there'll be a claim based on that delay. But if it was in terms of it'll be a bit model, more generic terms, etcetera. And you work collaboratively in order to get there.

Veer Dhaliwal

Then there may not be a claim necessarily, because there's a there's an understanding of collaboration, not this will be fit for that purpose in that time frame, for example, it's more generic, it's more flexible. And collaborative in nature rather than it's fixed. You deliver this at this time and you get paid this much, but if you don't deliver in that time and with that standard.

Veer Dhaliwal

Then what happens? The project gets delayed.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

No one wants to pay for it except the contract or the BIM provider will have to pay for it. Or lastly, it's something that's more common than anything else and prominent, I would say, in the construction and digital environment is misuse of IP between.

Veer Dhaliwal

Contractors and subcontractors. They can take one BIM model. That's amazing in one project and take it to another, but they have no rights to do so. So to avoid all this, just have a clear BIM execution plan at the start of the contract at the inception and lock in, you know, version control.

Veer Dhaliwal

Of that plan and make you sure that you know the dispute resolution clauses are actually tailored to digital workflows then, and it's worth having those you know mechanisms early on. In the contracting phase and understood how you can things can escalate, meaning they can be pushed up the chain and resolved at that higher level without it leading to a claim.

Andrea Ciaffi

OK. Yeah, good point. And I think we are again, we are working on this on this projects. We have multiple people with multiple

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. None.

Andrea Ciaffi

responsibilities. So how can we use the contracts to then

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

define and allocate the responsibilities related to the fitness for purpose?

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah. So in terms of responsibilities and fitness of purpose, I'd recommend that the BIM execution plan, because it's it's, let's just think of it as an adjoining document to the contract. So if it's incorporated into the contract rather than a document that gets created.

Veer Dhaliwal

After project is on foot and a contract has been signed, that means everyone has an understanding of how the BIM will function and how it'll be supported throughout the project. Rather, as the journey progresses and you know you go from one milestone to the next

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

milestone. If you have the BIM execution plan at the beginning, that's been understood even to the broadest, broadest brush, some kind of understanding of how BIM will be shared or who will own it, how it'll be incorporated. Then you can soften some of the contractual terms, so fitness of purpose can then exclude BIM if you want.

Veer Dhaliwal

For example, it can be subject to your skill and care and. BIM can be more collaborative rather than it'll be fit for this. And there's no BIM execution plan. Then there's no understanding of BIM. BIM is just then another item under IP, for example.

Veer Dhaliwal

You know, IP definition of IP includes models, circuits, circuit layouts, source code, etcetera, etcetera. Then it's just. It's no longer a smarts, it's just another deliverable.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

And it has to be fit for purpose, because then the environment digital construction is ever evolving and changing environment. It has to be collaborative, otherwise you're going to get stuck and there's going to be a lot of claims and there have been in the UK and and generally it's starting to become an issue.

Veer Dhaliwal

Australia as well.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good point. And I'm glad that you mentioned the BIM

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

execution plan because speaking with even with other digital leaders,

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

I've noticed that I'm not sure people pay enough attention to it. It's important.

Veer Dhaliwal

No.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's a legal document and you need to make sure that you pay attention. Into it, because then that can lead to claims and

Veer Dhaliwal

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

disputes. So sometimes, even if you prepare all of the right

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

documents or you've done everything right, at some point you end up in a dispute.

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You do? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

So what are the most common, most frequent claims that you see arising from? Beam related issues.

Veer Dhaliwal

So again, generally it's to do with the delay claims. So for incorrect data in the models that just don't match their client's requirements. Or real world application? Or it's in regards to models that's aren't functioning to how they're supposed to function for intended purpose or fitness with purpose or implied?

Veer Dhaliwal

Use of those models and then it's the misuse of IP between contractors and sub consultants and so on. It's third parties having the ability when there's no version control, no version control and no you know specific individuals that have rights to editing. The actual models, it's just anyone.

Veer Dhaliwal

It could be an agent, could be a third party contractor. That's only there for a week in the environment and thinking, wow, this is amazing. You know, it's 4D for live D whatever version of them it is.

Veer Dhaliwal

And that they take it and they take it to another project because there is all that calculation and that workflow and you know workings underneath the models that engineers have put so much time and resources into. A lot of love that's then taken to another project where they have no rights.

Andrea Ciaffi

A root point and how do courts typically view beam beam based claims?

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah. Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Like how do the three beam disputes in courts?

Veer Dhaliwal

Well, at the moment it's a it's a changing, changing environment. So in Australia it's just starting out. So whereas in the UK there have been a number of cases. On BIM, whereas in Australia at the moment it's just deliverable, just part of IP.

Veer Dhaliwal

So it's viewed in a larger context rather than as a its own claim in itself. So it's a journey we're in at the moment.

Andrea Ciaffi

Eric. Yeah, it's interesting because technology evolves and the lowest to get sharp with the the technology, yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah, it's not there. It's not there yet. So thankfully in Australia the claims haven't arisen, but they have arisen in the IP context or the claims context of deliverables. So it's delayed deliverables, it's claims and so on it milestones. But it's there. It's definitely there.

Veer Dhaliwal

It's starting. There's been a number of tested cases in Australia. I think about two to three. But if you look at the larger construction context deliverables, which is which currently falls under and IP, then yes, there have been no multitude of claims.

Andrea Ciaffi

Point and you just mentioned Australia, but many often people work on projects in

Veer Dhaliwal

It's.

Andrea Ciaffi

other countries or international projects and I was wondering from the

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

international point of view like how do beam and digital legal framework differ across different regions? So for example the UK, Europe,

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

United States, Australia. What's the difference between the different areas, geographies?

Veer Dhaliwal

So it's definitely getting more complicated in the other regions, there's been a multitude of cases being tried in the UK jurisdiction, and so they're all even the EU, they all have different laws and data ownership. Privacy and IP, for example, in Australia we have the Privacy Act, but then in the EU it's the GDPR Act.

Veer Dhaliwal

It's more data related data friendly, whereas in Australia I would say myself it's more generic in nature. But it is strengthening in terms of protections, but for them, in particular, the UK uses Isos. I believe 19650 standards and the EU has very strong privacy, like regulations and data protections on the GDPR.

Veer Dhaliwal

And so it doesn't necessarily in Australia have a strict BIM legal framework, but it does follow, you know, ISO 9650 in some of the sectors, so. You need to define jurisdiction governing law in your contracts. Make sure they comply with, you know, the local regulations and laws, but it's essential to, you know, seek legal advice.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

From IP experts or experts in the digital construction area to actually better prepare yourself for contracting in collaboration with other parties. Otherwise you may end up in that disputes area claims in the future. Instead of collaboration and working out a solution and escalating rather than go straight into claims.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, good point. And often we situations where a project may be like the the building or the infrastructure may be located in,

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

let's say, Australia or the UK, but the team that the of us,

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

but the team that delivers the project could be somewhere else could be another

Veer Dhaliwal

Mm hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

country, could be outsourcing. Of course, in Asia, for example, So what are the challenges that you see

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

arise when working on international projects that with different regulations in different countries, depending where the people that actually deliver the projects are?

Veer Dhaliwal

So you know, it's funny you say that in something I've actually recently encountered last week. It's in terms of, you know, professional services, it's it's a type of professional service

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

that they're providing in indemnity. And so that's what professional indemnity or general professional indemnity insurance covers. All over the world is a type of professional service or engineering services, and the challenge is is if someone's providing services from one region or one country, but because generally laws are prescribed to and limited to a jurisdiction of a country to another country.

Veer Dhaliwal

How is that client from the other country going to put a claim against that service provider from another country if they don't have an office there?

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

What's and what value is insurance policy? That's that's an ongoing challenge, but. One way to do that is if there's a retention sum. If there's, you know, milestone payments involved rather than lump sum. So I've seen government working at transport, for example, recently, is this?

Veer Dhaliwal

100% payment upfront for SAS products up to an X amount,

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm hmm.

Veer Dhaliwal

so it's having milestones in place that hey, if you don't deliver it by the state to the standard, then we won't pay you X amount of dollars. We'll only pay you for what you complete. Level of detail and that's for BIM, right. It was a 3D2D4D someone 5D level of detail.

Veer Dhaliwal

If you don't deliver it up to those detail and to standard that we've set in in terms of those backing documents then. You won't get certain amount of payment if at all.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, good point. And I would like to change gear and focus on some practical advice for construction professional.

Veer Dhaliwal

Of course.

Andrea Ciaffi

And this is not legal advice. Let's make sure that people understand

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

that this is just general information. So yeah, you're you're safe beer.

Veer Dhaliwal

OK, sure. Yeah. Sure.

Andrea Ciaffi

Just trying to focus on best practises and how do we manage the legal risk when

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

we work on beam or we focus on digital workflows.

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

So what are some of the key legal consideration? Every construction firm should keep in mind when they decide to adopt beam on on

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

their projects.

Veer Dhaliwal

And so in terms of, yeah, practical tips to adopting BIM is to start with the basics. For example, for lawyers or or, you know contract managers or even engineers, professionals in the BIM environment, digital construction is to start with using template clauses. That are fit again, fit for BIM and IP protection.

Veer Dhaliwal

They're actually bespoke, not just generic in nature that talk about IP and deliverables in general. It's talking BIM and being specific or what protection spim gets or is it collaborative in nature and who owns. Is it jointly owned? Was it licenced and so on?

Veer Dhaliwal

It can be separated out rather than being incorporated into one IP generic clause and then it's defining, you know, model, deliverables and and data ownership clearly. And thirdly, it's. To actually limit your liability for misuse of the model. So as a collaborator, as a consultant or contractor providing those deliverables and those models is.

Veer Dhaliwal

What's gonna happen to you after the model is taken from you? Do you disclaim all liability? Do you have ongoing liability, for example? That's right. If it's an agreement, the contract's in the form of an agreement. It's six years liability. If it's in the form of a deed, this is something I'm continually having to discuss and and and negotiate is in the form of a deed.

Veer Dhaliwal

Then it can be up to 12 years of liability. Do you want to be liable for your model? 12 years, for example, well after the project. And then keeping up with, you know, evolving standards. And then it's lastly, it's training your staff on the legal risks.

Veer Dhaliwal

Often you know, come from people just knowing how their work ties into the contract. How does it actually, what's the interplay or interconnections between the actual models and the contract terms? And do they know what then is does the.

Veer Dhaliwal

Legal team in your organisation or do the contract managers understand what them is or is it just again something off the shelf, something you can just throw away after the project's done? What if the client later on comes back in six years, five years for example, 5 1/2 years and they take your model was wrong?

Veer Dhaliwal

Something's really. Like wrong with the project. Yeah. So even even, yeah, even small firms and teams, can, you know,

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good point, yeah.

Veer Dhaliwal

manage risks if they're proactive and structured and how BIM is defined.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good. And thinking about the future and the, the future of the the legal framework around the digital constructions, how do you see the construction law evolving with the rise of AI and automation automation tools in Bing?

Veer Dhaliwal

So I see it evolving in nature of collaboration and there being a shared understanding of BIM and and allowing the actual creators of BIM models having ownership. That's that's, you know, best outcome.

Veer Dhaliwal

As I started with is that the actual created to have full ownership and then have provide a licence to clients because you do want to have the ability to innovate and modify in the future and update those models if you have a licence you can.

Veer Dhaliwal

Come back in. You can modify, you can maintain the models to to the client's requirements, whereas the challenge and the issue that I see again is claims coming out of BIM when there's no BIM execution plan in place at the start of the project inception.

Veer Dhaliwal

There's no standards that have been set and understanding common understanding of how BIM will interplay and continue to play out after the project's been completed.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, very good. Then the the legal framework is probably evolving and trying to catch up with the technology.

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

But are there any upcoming legal trends that construction firms should be aware

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

of at this point in time?

Veer Dhaliwal

So construction firms are, in terms of approaching legal risks in the future. It is, you know, not so much legal. I'd say it's more challenges of a practical sense is. Fragmentation systems, teams and contracts. They're just not aligned at the moment.

Veer Dhaliwal

Everyone's solving their own little piece of the contract or that project, but the real gains will come when we're all aligned with incentives and workflows across the whole project. And if we solve that digitally and legally, we can truly, you know, change how this industry delivers its projects as a whole rather than it being I'm in charge of facades, for example, while only perks and facades.

Veer Dhaliwal

My focus and but I've got some BIM involved in there in that project for some reason, right for a building then. But I'm not a BIM expert, so I'll just leave it to the BIM engineers to deal with. And let's not think about IP or protection of IP and then later on down the track like that was such a great project.

Veer Dhaliwal

The bin bottles were, you know, got some awards industry awards. How do we replicate that? You can't. You simply can't. You've been locked away because facile engineer that was in charge of, for example, that building project and didn't have quite have the education or the understanding and support and empowerment for them.

Veer Dhaliwal

And it's just when we look at it all together, hey, we've got this and this and this, including BIM. Let's support BIM. I have an understanding. What is BIM bringing that BMX? But the manager, for example, most teams have been managers and I believe, Andre, you've worked with many of them in the past.

Veer Dhaliwal

Airport otherwise. So it's just, you know, a collaborative effort that way you understand the risk exposure and the innovation and the gains that are possible at the end of the project or after the project.

Andrea Ciaffi

Play song. Yeah, very good. Thanks. We are at the end and I just wanted to share with the audience that beer is carving out some of times from his busy

Veer Dhaliwal

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

schedule to work on to, to work and support companies that need help and support from the IP and legal point of view. And he's working and I'll share the screen with.

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Aston Bale so you can go on astonbale. com dot au and you can see this is the

Veer Dhaliwal

Oh, thank you.

Andrea Ciaffi

firm and yeah, they specialise in supporting companies in construction as you can see. Would you like to add something about

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Aston Bale lawyers? What do you do and what type of services do you provide?

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah, of course. Yeah. So Aspen Bell lawyers is a digital firm. Funny enough, one of one of one. And our services generally do focus on. Digital. So be SAS products or it could be in the construction industry in itself. We provide, you know, advice across infrastructure, government clients, technology industries, manufacturing.

Veer Dhaliwal

Robotics, as well as being able to, you know, accelerate startups and small subject matter experts to accelerate ideas from the inception stage. Again, product conception or idea generation. To high growth companies as the trusted you know advisor and and we also have a you know fee structure.

Veer Dhaliwal

I know bills always buy but without that bite of the billable we have fixed fee firm quotes. That's as it is something that I want to create that environment that innovative and collaborative environment for digital engineers. I know they're also starting out just like myself.

Veer Dhaliwal

So there's a lot of a lot in terms of goodwill. And So what we do, you know what we try to do is we partner with our clients to find practical and innovative solutions to their, you know, legal challenges or conundrums to protect their invaluable smarts.

Veer Dhaliwal

From the get go from Project Conception and that's in the, you know from the IIP, digital and technology, not-for-profit manufacturing or construction or ICT sectors and that's how we support. And we're available across time zones as well. As you know, we do support clients all the way in Southeast Asia to the UK, India or even New Zealand in those areas.

Andrea Ciaffi

All right. And I'm sure that the audience will be able to reach out to you and you, you,

Veer Dhaliwal

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

you'll be able to help many founders or people working in the construction industry. But before we go, so we're at the end of the episode before