Reality Capture 101: Laser Scanning, BIM, and Digital Twins with Michael Alder

Michael

The ability to use online processing power rather than your own poor little laptop to open up point clouds or open up big virtual tours. I think that's the biggest game changer. Yeah. I don't can mention names, but there's probably not much point. Can just Google all that stuff if you really want.

Michael

But yeah, the ability to view online portals of your data and of your data and the model together is probably the most powerful and the biggest game. Because it becomes evident to everyone that what's being constructed either is or isn't accurate.

Michael

So then the ability to move all of that information into an online portal for the asset owner to use therefore becomes an immediate benefit to to everyone.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hi. Welcome to the Digital Construction podcast. Are you today?

Michael

Yeah, I'm good, Andrea. Good to see it's been a while.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's been a while, yeah. So today we're talking about reality capture. Michael Alder. Michael has a lot of experience in this space. He has been working for longer than 2020, almost 22 years at Arab Pen. The regional reality capture leader at the. But he's been working in this space for a long, long time, and many, many projects.

Michael

It's really, really old now. Thank you.

Andrea Ciaffi

So I'm like. Very good. Because you are, Michael, I know that you are a plant of reference in that and also something very good about Michael is that in 2014 he initiated the the move to the 3D point standing in the Melbourne Office for Arabs.

Andrea Ciaffi

So you've been playing. For a.

Michael

While now playing, I like that it's very. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Very. OK, now so to get started just a couple of Ice Breakers. If you could take a road trip anywhere in the world, where would you go? And what's your must have traveled snack?

Michael

Well, of course. Yesterday something with riding and cakes.

Andrea Ciaffi

Close.

Michael

I love riding and there's. There's a ride here in Melbourne called the Melbourne Roobay and it was just based on riding on cobblestones, so if I was gonna go anywhere, take some riding mates, take an old steel road bike and ride the parry Rubee.

Michael

And. It's just, it's ********, but it make me feel a little more like a genuine. You see, it's and and. And of course, if you're writing an old bike, you have to have coffee, so that's all.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, of. Yeah, you're you're showing to everybody. Come from Melbourne my friend.

Michael

Well, and and if you're in trance, maybe we'd have to have, you know, like a striped top and A and a baguette and shoved. There, yeah. Oh yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's good. Very good.

Michael

That's that's that's, you know, you know visualizing. You know the French music playing in the background and that sort of stuff.

Andrea Ciaffi

31 months. Very good. And if you could have any superpowers that to make a construction project go perfectly.

Michael

I see. Yeah, yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

What would it be this tough one? OK.

Michael

I think I think I'd have. Big, big pea on my shirt because it would say I'll be the planning superhero. All about finding. It doesn't. It doesn't seem to matter how much you attempt to plan and plan and. Proactive. It feels like everyone needs to be on the same.

Michael

The client the the different teams are so many different parties involved in any kind of construction. You know, building infrastructure and whatever. It's it's that involvement of the client right from the beginning and then the entire team and having that all brought together and all actually understanding what each other.

Michael

You know, it is such a different language. Trying to actually get that communication happening, you know, right through the people who gonna manage the building right from the visionary at the start with the architectural team. It's just trying to get that communication and planning going on.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, this this seems to be a recording theme. When I asked this question because. You have so many people with so many different skills, orchestrating everything perfectly is probably one of the challenges of the of this industry.

Michael

And and I think the ability to interpret the, I guess the sales pitch of the software companies and interpret that into. A realistic expectation because it's not the software, it's the people on the journey and how they use it. At the end, you know, everyone wants this sort of digital asset deliverable and we all know it's possible, but it happens a lot less than it really should.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, you know.

Michael

There's always this little. It's all going well, but then this. Or this person, or this. You know, it's so many difficulties along the along the way.

Andrea Ciaffi

We've been in this place. So just to start, can you start telling us a bit about your career journey and what led you to work in the construction beam? Capture space and sure, and if you can share some of some of the key.

Andrea Ciaffi

You've been involved in.

Michael

I guess it all began in 1992. Yes, I'm that old. When I finished my industrial design degree. So I'm I'm more artistic than engineering. I guess in the sense that. I got into industrial design through an art folio. Was two types of. There was the sort of engineering, maths and then there was the artistic and I was more the artistic side.

Michael

Anyway, I finished my industrial design degree in 92 and nothing was. There was just no jobs at all, but my first job was doing manual drafting building services. Over time, because I I used CAD AutoCAD version 10 and 11:00, I've actually done some 3D in that I brought CAD into my first workplace.

Michael

So I. Of ended up bringing that into Lincoln Scott, which was my first sort of large consultancy. The starter off drafting there manual. Sorry, CAD 2D drafting. Then I wanted to do 3D. I said I want to get back into 3D and at the time that was not something Lincoln Scott was doing, but Arab was and I moved Arab in 2003.

Michael

Believe it or not. So key projects he. And a couple of the key ones were the Alfred Intensive Care Unit 2004 and also the synchrotron project, quite intense. Coordination projects and we drew them in two.

Michael

But then I also modeled them in 3D just to check the coordination and I realised very quickly that it's actually quicker to model than it is to draw and actually draw sections everywhere and do little sketches. Yeah. Anyway, so that was some. That was sort of a couple of key projects back in, in the in the early days, but then eventually Revit came along.

Michael

About 2000, between 2000. 2009 was part of the team that introduced Revit and that whole suite of tools. That was a massive change. Believe it or not, but it wasn't until 2013 I had my first experience with laser scanning. Wasn't me doing it, but we're working with an architect who it actually had.

Michael

Existing building. Scanned and we're actually looking at the squareness of the the stairwell because it was. Heritage building. And then I started working with Nathan Line from investor on a project to do a chiller replacement. And 120 Collins. And so, because I've seen laser scanning, I had some done for that project that turned into a whole workflow of existing scan bin.

Michael

Adding asset data, pulling that through to the. We want the designer. I was really just being a digital advisor at that stage and then even the post install post handover. As built validation side of stuff was all part of that little little one chiller being replaced.

Michael

And then I look back on that and said even that workflow that we developed back then is still valid now, but we're applying it over much bigger projects on a much bigger scale. Wow. But that thinking is is key. Existing conditions are accurate.

Michael

Using that to produce the design drawings checking back against the original scan, handing that over with asset data as built, checking. The project. Workflow is really not changed too much from that, but it's scaled up. That's a very long introduction. Sorry, no.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's it's very good you. How your career has evolved over time and it's exciting to see how you've seen the transition from really pen and paper to to reality capture. And yeah, this is very exciting. And today we're talking about reality. So just to make an introduction, I explained to those people that are not as familiar about what reality capture is.

Andrea Ciaffi

You explain to us what reality capture and 3D does is. How they work?

Michael

It's reality captures a very broad term and it has to be broad because it covers so many different technologies. So if you think of it as a sweep from very simple image capture photogrammetry 360 photo. Capture and then over to laser scanning.

Michael

It's like a broad brush that captures all of those things so photogrammetry can be a whole bunch of individual images, which are then brought together to form an overall. Image which could be a tile on the face of the of the Earth, or it could be could be around an object which then turns into a mesh.

Michael

Or it can be a 360 photo series of 360 photo images. And the most common way to explain that. Apologies for the birds in the background. We've got some cockatiels every time someone walks past the front of the house they us about. So everyone knows Google.

Michael

So we you can sort of move from image to image and then look around that idea of that 360 photo image is exactly what I'm saying with that virtual tour.

Michael

And then if we move into laser scanning, if we can have static, we can have mobile, we can have all sorts of different ways of sending out laser and receiving it and then having a point on the surface. That's its most powerful when you combine that laser scanning technology with.

Michael

A 360 image because it colorizes the laser scan as well as giving you a measurable image that you can navigate around and look at. Really important to understand that I'm not a surveyor, OK? Right. An enthusiast. And. Knowing all of the really, really technical parts.

Michael

Of surveying is not my thing, and part of that which will come out later. I think in the in the whole discussion is what where do I hand over to someone else. When do I know that our skills internally are not up to scratch?

Michael

But how do we work with? The higher end survey grade type of scanning all the way through to a basic photogrammetry capture either from a drone. Or just from your phone. Can't believe I made that wrong. But that's trying to be broad, but not everything is laser scanning.

Michael

Everything is. You know 360 images, but it's all related and what's really nice is the ability to think of the right application. Of technology to the right application on site. Depending on the name. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Because because sometimes you have just images, sometimes you have pan cloud. So you. It depends if you need to take measurements. If you don't care about the quality of what things look like, maybe it's it's also.

Michael

But even the even that question about measurements, how accurate do you need that measurement to be? Know it's it's that whole question. Maybe we just want to have a look at what's there and the condition of that existing object. Or maybe we need to take sub millimeter measurements and what's what's the purpose of what we're doing and that really?

Michael

Sets the path. To which technology is most applicable?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, but we will thank you. And I said like, you've seen the full process and how things have changed from pen and paper to reality capture from your point of view. This. Of this technology change the way we approach engineering workflows like. How has that changed over time before and after these technologies?

Andrea Ciaffi

Oh.

Michael

I've done it myself many times as a draftsman to go out into the field, to actually physically hand measure. Never forget doing plenum once had to measure up a plenum. Do a sketch myself on site, then then draw it up as the existing conditions.

Michael

It took me most of the day to do it. I actually ended up getting a scan of the same. I'm done later and I couldn't believe how badly I'd done it. Like it took half the time. It was twice as accurate and I think that physical hand measure combined with a whole bunch of photos on your phone, Bang Bang, bang, bang, Bang Bang bang.

Michael

Or a hand mark up with a couple of key measurements. The problem with that is that there's very little context to what you're doing. Hand measuring something is very hard to do properly over a large scale because you tend to have small incremental measurement errors which all add up.

Michael

A big a big error and if I if I go to side and take 50 photos around the place, it's very hard. If you're someone who has not been to site to actually look at those photos, first of all find a folder that they've been dumped in and.

Michael

Work. Oh, I think that's looking at that because in the corner I can see an exit sign and oh, oh, hang on. That's the that's a different floor. You know, it's the context and. The repidity of the of the of the. The current technology, like how fast I can get out and get back to the office, how quickly I can share that with everyone.

Michael

That's the real big difference. Previously you'd be having multiple trips out to sign by multiple people all taking their own photos. All throwing it in a folder. And all trying to look at different things for different purposes. The mechanical. Electrical engineer, the architect.

Michael

Structural. They all have different things that they want to look at, but when you have it captured in a single portal. Either a virtual tour or a laser scanning capture. Everyone can look at the same data from different points of view and get different things out of it, but because you've got the whole area, everyone can look at it and walk around it.

Michael

It's. Actually a lot safer because you only got one person visiting site.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, this. Yeah, this too. You. You can consider the safety aspects of reality caption the fact that you're only sending one person or the multiple people over multiple site visits.

Michael

And it might be a remote or hard to get to place as well. It might be dangerous. It might be in a confined space. It might be just unpleasant to be there. Might be hot, might be smelly Pinos. But by doing it once, it's also a point in time.

Michael

I'm probably going way past just this main question, but. You can go into multiple site visits and compare overtime how something's changed in its condition. Or, you know, erosion. You know all of those sorts of things. Rust, you know, facades. All this sort of stuff just because of the very high quality of the images that we can capture.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, I know it's. And yeah, very good point. The one about around the context and being able to understand the mutual relationships between images or scans, so you can actually understand where you are, where that where that for example photos being taken from.

Andrea Ciaffi

And eliminates all the guesswork. You can. Everybody is aligned, looking at the same thing. It's actually an improvement of what the ID looks. Because if I as an individual, were standing inside the room, it will still be harder for me to measure the distance.

Andrea Ciaffi

Of different things I'll have to do that and measure, while if I'm inside the virtual model, I can actually measure things very, very quickly, even if I'm not there. So it's a must improvement, I think, yeah.

Michael

No it. It's it's a high and and I think what I've seen in the last 10 years is it since it used to be a very bespoke kind of technology, whereas now I think most project managers, most engineers and consultants and builders. All sort of know what it is.

Michael

You know most people when they go and and book. A house to go and stay in. They like doing a virtual tour around that house. It's sort of normal now. You know, it's it's changed a lot in 10 years. Think it's a lot more common?

Andrea Ciaffi

Nice. Yeah. OK. So we have touching on what it is and how they are recaptured has changed the workflows. But let's think about how do we. Talk about how do we actually capture data? So we are collecting eye quality data using laser scanner barrels, other tools.

Andrea Ciaffi

So what are the key tools and technology that we are using to acquire accurate sites that at the moment? Yep.

Michael

If you have the right equipment, you can actually go a long way down the path to doing lot off. Accurate geolocation of the scan data so. Freely available is permanent survey markers. They normally site a site based permanent marker that you'll find either in the pavement or on a corner.

Michael

Those are all available on. Websites to actually look at here's here's an actual coordinate. So often what we'll do because we've got an antenna as well to take up GPS is. Align align our scan that we're doing in the in the area to the nearest permanent surve.

Michael

Umm. Add in some GPS coordinate points. And then that gives us the real coordinates that we're able to use. Now I've gotten an advantage even though I'm not a surveyor, we do have qualified surveyors within Europe, so I can always acquire the data, get it checked by someone who has more experience and qualifications than me.

Michael

Or I can hand those those scans over to a surveyor if it needs to. Be validated, but as a starting point we can go straight in there and grab. Points using a GPS antenna. And so in terms of key technologies, that becomes the starting point.

Michael

But then having a high quality laser scanner that's static. So in terms of taking position by position scans. Typically. Now we're using a mixture of different. We've got a Trimble X7 Faro M70. We've got quite a number of these different units now that we share around the different offices.

Michael

So having us, what do you call it a a true a a good antenna or a way of finding survey markers? A way of using the actual scanner on site. They're the main tools. But then you need. Way to process it as well.

Michael

So you need to actually be able to take the data. Raw. Register the data together and then align it to the survey marks that you picked up. So they're sort of key. Know the sort of three phases of the of the process. To me there's the capture.

Michael

There's the registration, and then there's the. So how do you align that to a model? How do you align that to the coordinates and then how do you publish it so that others can actually look at it because. It's no good having it in its native.

Michael

It needs to be published into a way that can be used in a model or viewed online. So it's, you know, the three sort of phases. So the key is really having the right tools in the capture stage in the registration phase and then in the publishing phase.

Andrea Ciaffi

So now I just. Yeah. And I guess this will keep on evolving with technology, new software, new scanner. So what does Nancy say? Update it.

Michael

Absolutely. Well, it's it's not just, you know, like I said a little while ago. It's not just the tripod based. Now there's a whole bunch of different types of mobile scanning handheld mobile vehicle based mobile. You can get ones on the front of a train.

Michael

You can get them in. A aircraft based drone based. There's more and more on the on the market all the time and. Typically they're becoming easier to use and that's the aim is so that they're faster. So that capture phase can be done faster and spend less time on site.

Michael

The processing done faster. Get the get it? Hand over to the team. Or the external client.

Andrea Ciaffi

During this process, there will be challenges when Israel collect data. What are the most common common challenges and how do you overcome them?

Michael

I think getting access to site would be a big one. Are are there restrictions? There time frames that you really need to overcome. Is it a restricted site? Is it a site? With security challenges in terms of what you're actually scanning. Umm, how?

Michael

Hey. How that data is going to be used afterwards? Are we going to capture people's? Are we going to capture information within that site? Sensitive. So it's about planning that access to the site so that you're not spending too much time capturing irrelevant objects.

Michael

So being really focused. On the actual challenge, not just scanning, because it's cool. You know, I really want to scan the front of this plane because it looks really cool when I scan it.

Michael

No, no. It's the stairwell or it's the the pipe connection, or it's the equipment it's being focused about that and I think that's one of the advantages of having an in house scanning team is that you you have direct access to the the person who's gonna be using that SC.

Michael

And for that engineering application so that you know exactly what the the the focus and the purpose of that scan is going to be and therefore it can be more efficient and done in a way that's more focused. Challenges of everything is obstructions.

Michael

Scanning is only ever done in a straight line. The reason you need to take multiple scans is to get around obstacles. Everyone always wants to. Can you scan through like an X? No car there. Yeah. There are specialist in ground scanning to scan.

Michael

Through. But that's a very. But scanning through a ceiling, unless you have a ceiling tile, you can pull down, or you can cut a hole in the ceiling in the right spots. The biggest obstruction is literally an obstruction. Because you can't scan through it and then then trying to join them.

Michael

So if I can't get into the ceiling and scan and I can scan below it, how do I make the scans see each other so I can actually join them together? So if I go through an access panel, I want to scan below the access panel in the access panel and above the access panel so I can sort of get views and all of this takes time.

Michael

Yeah. So if I've got a lot. Let's say a house with lots of different. I need to scan either side of the door, sometimes in the doorway, so I get good coverage, and that's planning. That's really key. Because I must say I'll just take me half a day and then I realise I'm on.

Michael

I know somebody doors. So many obstructions. If people are walking around while you're scanning as well, that can be a problem as well because it causes smudges or shadows which then might need to be cut out later. So there's lots of little little subtle things.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, let's say the sides are. Is probably the most important part in this process. Yeah.

Michael

Yeah. And and having as much. About the site before you visit it. As well. I mean even. I thought we'd be doing 1A floor flattener survey for a new piece of equipment coming in for a hospital, and I know it's all empty. It's all fine.

Michael

And I. And then there's just boxes everywhere. I spent half my time moving boxes out of the way so I could actually scan, scan the slab. I could then actually get a good coverage. And actually see how much it's. Or has it got divots in it?

Michael

You know, very. That's like, very fine sort of stuff, but.

Andrea Ciaffi

So this social.

Michael

Unless you plan it, sorry.

Andrea Ciaffi

No, no, I mean a lot of like coordination with the clients to make sure that the site is is ready. Do. Do you go? Do you go there and visit the site before you actually do the scan or? Or do you just tell them what to do?

Andrea Ciaffi

You have a checklist? Yeah.

Michael

Pet interface. Yeah, it. It's really about talking. Do you need a security escort for example? You'll have someone with you. Do you need need extra access equipment like platforms to get? This might be a double height space, so you might need an access lift or a cherry picker to get up high.

Michael

So it's all that sort of planning. And communication that the person owning the site. Or in. Know it might be a construction site. Do you need to have particular access to? You know white cards? Be a rail. Do you need special training and?

Michael

What do you call it? Sign off that you're allowed to actually enter that site.

Andrea Ciaffi

Very good. So we talked about we captured data, but. We also know that. Eradicate capture is used to verify. Construction during engineering projects. From your country, how is really captured used to verify processes and accuracy during the construction or even during the engineering phases?

Michael

Yeah, yeah. Existing conditions. Capture is usually the beginning of a project. Typically there's a lack of documentation. Typically the any drawings might be. 10:15, 20-30 years old and the site has changed multiple times since those drawings. Knows that those drawings are not.

Michael

They're still important, but they don't have the current condition, so doing that existing scan and then modelling or at least measurement from that existing condition scan becomes critical. And so then during the construction we've often done, you know, sort of periodic checking on the installation.

Michael

We do BIM construction management but. If it's not being installed the way it's been coordinated, then everything's a bit. So doing spot checks on on that installation progress and then comparing it back to the the coordination. BIM coordination process during construction can actually really help.

Michael

Waste stop wasting time because we can continue to coordinate, but we're not coordinating with the actual current building. And then of course, as the as the as built documents get put together. Scans often an easy way to just do a final check. Run through the the site.

Andrea Ciaffi

I'm not doing. I do check if the has build version actually matches what was modeled what was designed because you I guess. Will. A model and then you will have a construction site that is real and it's there are do you check? Do you check that they actually match?

Michael

Couple of different ways to do that. Is just. So you can just look in that actual model that is producing the as build drawings. Just have a series of check views. You know that different heights, different section views. Do a visual check. That's the fastest way, but there are softwares as well which can do a scan.

Michael

Wipe. Versus model check to A to an actual. What do you call it? So you can do intolerance check and then get a report of every element that doesn't meet the tolerance so that you can go that sort of full report look into really fast check through the model and it's very it's key obviously to line the scan up to the.

Michael

Because then what you do is you send that scan out to the party. Who needs to produce the. And they then need to make sure that they're as conforms to the to the existing conditions and that's why, sorry, that's why periodic scanning. If you've got multiple layers of services, for example.

Michael

If you scan just at the end, you just get the outer edges of that, whereas if you can scan during the different lyrics, then you have much more chance of capturing. Everything, especially some of the smaller services that might be hidden 'cause if we talked about obstructions before.

Michael

Yeah. I interrupted you.

Andrea Ciaffi

No, no, no. I would just move going to make a joke and say it looks like a clash detection where you want 100% clashes. He needs to mesh, right? Yeah.

Michael

100%. 100% and look, nothing is ever exact when it's installed because of the different. You know, maybe maybe that to to get something installed. To keep the program something had to be installed before something else. But but how often does that come back through into the?

Michael

Coordination construction. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Sometimes they've seen pipes that where it was supposed to. Like when we model in Revit, we model perfectly straight lines, but then on side nobody can actually build the perfectly straight line. So. Yeah. All those pipes end up having a slope, even if they shouldn't. It's a very small.

Andrea Ciaffi

So yeah, it's it's very interesting. I imagine now this can also improve the construction process, reducing rework. Because imagine what would possibly happen if we build something that is not exactly what. To. Look like and then we have to rectify. How do you think this technology can help reducing work and improve the overall efficiency of a project?

Michael

It it's about being timely in in the application of the technology so. Maybe after the the base buildings, you know our level has been done. Where the penetrations are the penetrations themselves in the right place if if we. With that. You know, then all of a sudden.

Michael

Oh, we've got the real penetration location. The how's that going to impact the proposed? Maybe we couldn't put the penetrations where they were because of some other reason. Maybe the maybe the design was ahead of. Where those penetrations were going to be instead of then sending all of the components to site to be installed and then having to get stuff redone, we need to remake these connections.

Michael

By having a heads up about those things will always improve the. But as long as it's done in a timely way, you know those those those tight. Coordination issues or it's part of getting, you know, prefabricated stuff done because we know we've got real confidence in the in the site conditions, prefabrication can be a lot more efficient because there's there's no question marks.

Michael

All it's all going to fit. Because the site conditions are 100% correct. It's, it's that kind of thing clear existing conditions. Periodic checking restored location during the whole process. And then it gives confidence to the asset owner that what's actually there is what's actually there and and a way for them to actually go back and walk through it even when they're not on site.

Michael

Or even. Down site is more efficient to walk through the site virt. Physically. Especially, especially if the sites are half being constructed. It's just, yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And we just talked about this like how we handle the entire construction process. But at some point, the construction, the building or the infrastructure will be completed at that point. Everything's coming. Can help produce accurate, accurate as bill documentation at the end of the project.

Michael

Well, there's just no question that it helps because it's it's 100% well from what if it's been done correctly, there will be no hidden areas, everything. Behind a wall behind a bulkhead. Even the potential to scan reinforcement within a slab before the concrete is poured.

Michael

It actually augments the. The documentation is only ever going to be as good as it the accuracy of the as built reflecting the construction. So the more of the reality captured deliverable you can. Incorporate into the process.

Michael

The more accurate the as built will be, and I really like the idea of, you know, before any walls are put up, you know, got all the hydraulics in the wall. You got all of the conduits, even a lot of under floor raised floor services for.

Michael

Thanks. Scanning all of that before it all gets covered. Makes the documentation so much. Because if I'm kind of come back and find something to repair something or to add to it, I can find that junction box. Can find that valve. I can find it because I know exactly where it is, not just where it.

Michael

Intended to be. So yeah, and I'm talking mostly buildings here, but it it matters for anything. Any kind of industrial, any kind of in ground services for example, you might have a an entire precinct where you've got incoming in ground services knowing exactly where they are, how deep they are.

Michael

Can obviously cause a lot of hassles if you don't know where they are, you might start digging up in one area and you realize, oh, it's actually over here and maybe maybe someone knows where that is, but maybe it's five years ago. Who knows?

Michael

You know, so the. The more of that kind of data you've got, obviously the better. Better position your at the end of at the end of a project.

Andrea Ciaffi

And this could be very useful for owners and facility managers. Some point you will have to endeavor this model. What do you normally? You just give the model to them. To use some time, keep on maintaining the models. Does it work?

Michael

Some some asset owners will hold on to the. Some will even know what to do with them, but typically it's not common. Not saying it doesn't happen. Course it. But there's, I don't think many asset owners really know what to do with the data once they've got it.

Michael

Hmm. Do they keep it in a Revit file that eventually is going to be out of date and they need 5 upgrades to get back? Where it was. You know, it's all of those sorts of issues once the asset owner holds on to that.

Michael

Do they have the skills internally to maintain those? Do they have the skills to to keep viewing any? Capture that was done during the process unless unless it was set up at the beginning of the project with an understanding to hand it over in a way that they can actually view it and keep accessing it.

Michael

Then I think it eventually just comes like any other kind of documentation. Can just get out of date and also potentially. That the models won't be accessible after a certain amount of. You know, if I try and find a Revit model from 10 years ago and use it, you can tell me how easy that is.

Michael

It's problematic. There are workarounds, but it's not. Easily accessible. So unless that's sort of built into the the program have a usable digital asset management. And actually have the people at the at the receiving end actually able to do it and even understand what they have then I think then there's a big opportunity.

Michael

Was a big chance that that opportunity will be lost during the handover. So it's one of those things where I think there's a huge opportunity in the market at the moment for that real handover to happen. I think that's where, you know, if you look at the development of BIM over the last 10-15 years, you know we had the enthusiasts and the architects and the engineers.

Michael

Now it's the builders and the the the construction team. All. On board, as far as I can tell. It's now. It's. It's the asset owners turn, turn and and of course you've got examples of asset owners taking out on board and every day you hear about more and more.

Michael

Teams, infrastructure teams all using the the infrastructure. But I think there's still a big amount of asset owners who know. Cognitively, yes. We need to be doing something with this, but we don't have the skills or the time or the ability. To get the best out of it, and they might know that.

Michael

Might know where the models are. Might know how to use. Particular software. But is it part of everyday reality? I think. I think more often not than it is. Does that make sense?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it makes sense. And do you know any like any specific software or platform that you recommend like we? Don't have. Relationships with vendors, by the way, just any any software or platform you think could improve this process.

Michael

Look, my experience is mostly with. I guess any kind of well for our processing we use. Real works, but there's like a products, there's there's even free products like. Well, for viewers, you know. So you got all of this recap, you've got, you know, most of the softwares that we use to model with you can look at reality capture data, laser scanning.

Michael

But I guess the. The main game changer I think really has been the the development of online portals. Where you can do virtual tours where you can look at laser scanning where you can extract information or even just do measurement so.

Michael

You know, there's a whole bunch of different software vendors, but the ability to use online processing power rather than your own poor little laptop to open up point clouds or open up big virtual tours. I think that's the biggest. Game changer. And I can mention names, but it's probably not much point.

Michael

Can just Google all that stuff if you really want. But yeah, the ability to view online portals of your data and of your data and the model together is probably the most powerful and the biggest game changer. Because it becomes evident to everyone that what's being constructed either is or isn't accurate.

Michael

And so then the the ability to move all of that information into an online portal for the asset owner to use therefore becomes an immediate benefit to to everyone involved in the ongoing asset management of that. You know that data because it's also linked with asset information as well.

Michael

So the best portals are the ones where you can pull through the information. Of the model, the model, asset information and the reality capture altogether in one portal, and I think that's where the real advantage has been and the real development, even the last few years, more and more of these types of portals are are coming to the.

Michael

Four. And they're not just used for communication before and during the actual project, but afterwards. I think they're getting more and more traction because of the ease and the lack of skill that you need. To navigate your way around them. You don't need to be a Revit.

Michael

You don't need to be a real works or a reality capture expert. You don't need to know all of that. You've got something that can actually bring it together any single portal.

Andrea Ciaffi

Do I need to install a new? You don't need to figure out what's the minimum requirements of your laptop to make sure that you can actually build that that. You don't need to think about all of the different file formats. Serving is combined into a single web port, so use Google Chrome basically or Firefox.

Andrea Ciaffi

So whichever browser you like.

Michael

And I remember the very first time I tried to hand over a scan to a client. Had to send them. A hard drive and I had to send them an executable file for them to install the software to just to view. What was on that hard drive and it didn't take long for me to realise that not everyone has got admin rights on their own computer.

Michael

Oh yeah. And. That became the biggest problem. So then the search was on. How do I upload all of this data to something that? I can then give someone secure access to so they view and look at what they've got. And now there's a number of software portals that do that and.

Michael

That's that's probably the the biggest.

Andrea Ciaffi

Game changer and even the opportunity that you can upload a file now and I always get the latest. I just need to go on the portal and I'm sure that I'm getting the latest version. That's also something it feels obvious like. It feels like obvious if you talk about this right now, but it wasn't there a few years ago, so.

Michael

Now it's it's it's become. Easier and easier. And even the the portals that we use, I'm able to combine my laser scanning with a subcontractors laser scanning. So we do projects where we might do a certain portion of that scan, but then? We get an external supplier to give us a drone capture over the top or an underwater scan.

Michael

As. And we can combine all of these different ones. I can use those portals to to gather that data to myself rather than waiting for the post or a Courier to arrive with the hard drive. These become communication. Portals as well, where? I can give you know I can do a scan of your house.

Michael

I can then upload the scan to you up to a portal. You only have access to it, but you can then download a crop of just what you need for your upgrade, so it gives you control over what data you pull down and how you want to use.

Michael

So it makes it a lot more easy and smooth transition and it means I just need to set up an upload going and I can walk away. I don't have to wait to copy it to a hard drive and then find a Courier.

Michael

Know it's a Friday night. Quick, you know? Yeah. Go ahead and.

Andrea Ciaffi

Speaking about projects, is there any specific projects that you can share with us where capture played a critical role and engine and speaking about industries you know we have infrastructure, commercial buildings? Which which what do? You see this technology to be. More import.

Michael

I've tried to. Think of a few different examples across different industries. I've got a really nice example where I've done a number of scans at Sugar Australia, so industrial, but not just industrial. Heritage. So it's actually heritage listed working industry industrial site. So even I remember doing a scan in the sugar store.

Michael

And the actual timber structure is heritage listed. So doing a scan in there to to understand the the timber structure that's over 100 years old, you know it's, you know and some of the building was. Damaged.

Michael

So we had to do some scans because some of the drawings were lost and then some of the equipment is of such scale that it needed to be captured for replacement purposes. There was literally no documentation and even to the point where we need to SC.

Michael

Path that this large equipment needed to get out of the building. So they can plan the replacement. That's industrial. Look, plant rooms, I think are one of the all time great examples. 120 Collins Street level 52 chiller replacement. That's my my OG 20/20/14.

Michael

Bench. And just. To know that we we couldn't use 30 year old drawings. We use them to know ah. So that's the internal diameter of that pipe underneath the insulation. But knowing exactly where that pipe is to cut it and to reconnect it, any kind of end of life equipment replacement.

Michael

Critical. Recently we did a we're part of a tram corridor upgrade, so we didn't do the scanning. That was a a mobile scan that was done on top of a A van. But we provided the portal for all of those scans to be uploaded to, and then we did some feature extraction from that.

Michael

We downloaded the scan, pulled out the critical features for tram stop upgrades. So there's a, you know, that kind of example where large scale, you know I think over a couple of kilometers worth of scanning was done. But allowed us to get really fast access to the data for us to get our engineering and design going faster.

Michael

We did a heritage. There's a park bridge in Bown, part of Barnwater, and it goes over a river. So we did scanning. Underneath it, we had a drone do a scan over the top. We combined that together for us to do some remedial design works, so heritage.

Michael

Large infrastructure kind of works. Also, condition assessment built into that as well. And then probably the largest project we've been doing work on over the last five years would be Melbourne airport. So a lot of. Thanks. A lot of work at Melbourne. It's constantly having upgrade works, expansion works being done.

Michael

So we've done a lot of scan to beam existing conditions. Where we'll do the. In either hand it over to another team or it'll be part of our team that does the the works on that. So yeah. Large, small one single plant room or part of an entire precinct in an airport.

Michael

Stack on the 1st so many. Many. So many, and I'm only just touching on it. Know you've got. Rail rail scans of the entire city loop. You know where? Where does the where does the city loop sit? The building we're building.

Andrea Ciaffi

You.

Michael

Know that kind of stuff. Come on, stop. So there's this huge applications everywhere and I only just touched on a few of the examples and. That we've done.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's. And this technology, like any other technologies, will have challenges and. We really touched the challenges with preparing the sites and making sure that everybody is ready. Nobody has left too many boxes. OK. So you can actually. Kind of. You can do your work.

Andrea Ciaffi

But what are the? Biggest challenges that you see when you're trying to prevent the ID capture on projects and and think about things like large data sets and fat size and how do you how do. Actually. Solve these problems.

Michael

I think. When setting up a project. That involves reality capture or laser scanning. It's what I started said at the beginning, trying to really determine the end use and scope of the project. What's the real driving reason that we need to be doing what we're doing?

Michael

We don't want to. Scan. It just for the fun of it. Just because it's cool. Want to spend that time really efficiently? Just to get just what we need. But then at the same time, are there any other opportunities that can save time down the track?

Michael

We we might be doing 1 development, but if we capture some adjacent property maybe that can save time later on for the scoping of future projects. But the the biggest conversation I have usually is how much time is what we're proposing going to take.

Michael

Depending on the type of capture. If I do a virtual. That might take about 1/4 of the time that a full colour laser scan of the same space will take, so it's determining. Yes I need accuracy. Am I checking how flat a floor is submillimetre?

Michael

I checking. You know. The depth of a piece of steel in a bridge because it's critical to then do. Some load calculations. Or am I just doing a condition assessment of a room because it's a piece of heritage architecture and we need to see?

Michael

At this point of time, do we need to do any remedial works? It's, it's that kind of scope and end use that becomes really critical. Does that make sense?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. Do you think that? Do you? Yeah. Do you think that? Clients and owners or facility managers should be aware of any specific limitations of this technology because you know, like there is always this. Conflict and tensions between the expectations that people may have in their own head and what we are actually going to deliver.

Andrea Ciaffi

What are the limitations that you think? This technology has, and people should be aware of.

Michael

Yeah, I think the couple of the main considerations are really the the cost of outsourcing that kind of skill or purchasing equipment and learning how to use it. Oh. For your own purposes, so the typically the higher the cost of the equipment. Means the higher the accuracy and the range you know the actual.

Michael

How far will that laser travel before I never see it again? You know, some of them do 708090 meters. So they can actually capture some pretty. Amazing. Uh. The cost will be potentially twice or three times. You know what, you might call a run-of-the-mill laser scanner?

Michael

You know, if I'm going to capture. A whole site, but I just want to use a little handheld 360 video camera. Can do it, and it might cost a. $100 or. I can go around and spend days with a tripod mounted scanner. As long as we're aware of the limitations.

Michael

And the cost associated with that limitation and then the higher the cost, the higher the skill needed to use it and to then get the information and process it into a usable form. I think that's the that's the main sort of my pronouncing balancing.

Michael

That's one. Act and then in terms of trying to keep on top of the changing technology, you know it has changed pretty rapidly in the last 10 years. And then I think you go back like laser scanning spent around for a long time.

Michael

If you look at the original L. Scanners they were. They looked like they would bring something like a satellite down out of. They look that big, you know, like this huge vehicle mounted scanners that were, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Michael

But the technology is smaller. Faster. It is higher quality, but still pretty expensive. But I think the bigger challenge is more once you've captured it, how do you use it? Sort of knowledge and. The the amount of technology and other softwares which are now tapping into that.

Michael

Are really interesting and but ever evolving, so that's a challenge to anyone who wants to be involved in this kind of tech.

Andrea Ciaffi

And speaking. Evolution and future. What do you see? Really capture evolving over the next, let's say, 5 to 10 years. Now it's hard to predict the future, but you see now. Past is what do you think? All of this.

Michael

I think I think some of the coolest stuff I've seen recently is the ability for and I had to come up some way, didn't it? But AI and machine learning to start having a real impact. We've talked a lot about machine learning, looking at things like automated condition assessment of, say, glazing and this is one of the discussions we had a long time ago.

Michael

But I'm seeing that actually now come to A to to actually be used. The ability to teach a computer. All right, So what type of glazing crack is this now? I'll give you 5000 images. Hmm. Now you can tell me how many of these are are of a critical nature.

Michael

Many of these you know it's it's that kind of rapid assessment. I've seen some AI. Which can start identifying objects within a scan and segregating it. So I can I can have a huge scan of an industrial plant. And I can say I found the all of the valves.

Michael

It's not perfect yet, but it's actually pretty scary how fast it can find them and segregate them. Instead of me sort of trawling through the scan, there's one. Let's segregate that little one out. It actually can find them very quickly and then you can start tagging those and and linking asset data to them.

Michael

And potentially. Linking that asset data to the. The drawing, which shows that particular valve. So linking actual and asset ID to the. The scanned reality of the same piece of equipment. So it's that kind of. Integrated asset management AI, I reckon that's where it's all going to be heading.

Michael

Object recognition where the image you can read the actual asset ID. Oh well. And then pull that in as. Piece of known data. So it's that kind of it's that kind of stuff I think should become better and better, probably quicker than five years.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, you know, yeah, the technology of AI is also helping.

Michael

Over.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's also helping another industry and the physical one that builds drones and robots, because now we are giving some level of intelligence to these devices and you see that technology is like drones and robots. Will be able. Play a bigger role in specific data acquisition.

Michael

Yeah. That they already exist. You know, we've already seen the the little dog, you know, with the scan. I know all of that kind of technology is it's already there, but it's really about how quickly does it trickle down into everyday use, like already.

Michael

Yeah. Mobile capture vehicle mounted. You know that that idea of the you probably seen examples of three 360 video cameras on construction helmets doing daily walkthroughs of sites? Get more wearable stuff. You know all of these sorts of technology will become more common and more used, and the more people that see it, the more people that are interested in it.

Michael

And that momentum just keeps building. And I think that all of these things just become more normal. Rather than being. That whole. Curve. From this is really advanced and really cool to more normalized, you know. Is as. Yeah, that's it. That's it. The that's the word.

Michael

And I think the overlay and ability to tailor and customize the the AI will start taking out a lot of the manual, our effort in not just segregating scans but identifying. Elements and tagging them within virtual tools. That kind of thing? Absolutely. Very, very exciting.

Andrea Ciaffi

Thank you. So we are at the end of our. This was a great episode, full of insights and very, very excited to share this with the audience. Just.

Michael

Tikhon to Tikhon.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, just last one, if people want to reach out to you where they can find you.

Michael

I'm in Melbourne having a good time.

Andrea Ciaffi

And that was nice.

Michael

Now obviously at Arab in Melbourne. And yeah, the what? Do you call it? I'm on. LinkedIn. You'll see me there somewhere. All of that sort of stuff. I don't hide myself too much.