The BIM Pirate - How to Sell BIM Services with Simon Dilhas

Andrea Ciaffi

Hi Simone, welcome to the Digital Construction podcast. How are you today?

Simon Dilhas

Hi, thanks. I'm very fine and thank you for the invitation.

Andrea Ciaffi

In this episode, we sit down with Simon Dillas, better known as the Beam Pirate. Simon challenges conventional beam practises and pushes for human centred automation driven approach to digital transformation. We will explore why he became the beam pirate. What's broken in beam and how to interact with clients effectively?

Andrea Ciaffi

I'm very excited for this episode, but before we start Simone, I have a nice breaker for you. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received in your career?

Simon Dilhas

That's a good question. I think it was at the beginning of my career and I I did go to a meditation retreat and where the the, the teacher, he said. Salmon. I hope you won't get successful too fast.

Andrea Ciaffi

Into the scene.

Simon Dilhas

And I I thought about it and thought how what's going on here. But the more I thought about it, the more I understood what he meant so I wouldn't have done all the different things I'm I'm doing now. If I've become successful right at the beginning of my career.

Andrea Ciaffi

And why do you think so? Why do you think that would be different?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, because I did go for so many different steps. I learned so much on the way. And I mean, I've probably as every architect of the university you think you know everything, the world just waited for you. And now you're ready to show the world how, how, how construction works.

Simon Dilhas

What's good architecture is.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, sometimes you have to go through a little

Simon Dilhas

And.

Andrea Ciaffi

bit of pain.

Simon Dilhas

Yes, exactly. And I think that helps and I don't know.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, I was listening. Yeah, I was listening to an interview of the

Simon Dilhas

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

founder of NVIDIA and he said that it's very important to experience pain in

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

order to be successful. So that's probably aligned with that.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, probably. Probably yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

OK, that's good. That's a pretty good piece of advice. And on the Internet, on LinkedIn in particular, you are very famous as the beam pirate and I think it will be very interesting

Simon Dilhas

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

to share with the audience. Why did you take on the identity of the beam pirate? And if people haven't seen it just on LinkedIn, it's very interesting. As visuals but but why did you find this nickname? And what's the story behind it?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, sure. So I I think the BIM pirate he stands for this rebellious spirit and yeah, BIM very much needs it or needed it because BIM is, yeah, becomes into her own industry. That is a little bit decoupled from real value creation of in projects.

Simon Dilhas

And that's where the BIM pirate fights against this wrong direction. And yeah, the story behind the BIM pirate it's actually, I was laying in bed with my wife and she was talking about the. Pirates who just repeat what others saying and have no own opinion, and so on and so on.

Simon Dilhas

And after some time I thought, or I told her. Are you not talking about pirates? You're talking about parrots. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

But that's how this spin pirate story, or character was born.

Andrea Ciaffi

Thanks.

Simon Dilhas

Because when we said yeah, but your industry, she's working in pharma and my industry, I'm working in construction. We need more pirates, not pirates. And the pirate was born.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, this is an interesting, interesting story. And yeah, your content on LinkedIn is very interesting. You really challenge the norm. And I can feel a little bit of frustration about being around the beam industry from your point of view. But what frustrates you the most about beam is being applied.

Andrea Ciaffi

Today.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, mostly. I see two trends. One trend is a beam as this extra thing. On the project. So just deliver the project and do the BIM on top. And this is not value creation. This is just busy work. And yeah, a little bit connected to this is this development of having BIM consultancies, external BIM modellers, but basically support this narrative of.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, we do the project and beam on top. And this is not a good development because it increases overhead, it increases waste and doesn't really help the project.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's a very good point. I I think I've heard once somebody saying nobody has ever asked anyone to develop, to build beam, it was not requested and now we found all of us thinking about it,

Simon Dilhas

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

talking about it and developing beam. But there is certainly. Good reasons why we do it, but if you could, yeah. Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

Definitely yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

No, no, go ahead so.

Simon Dilhas

Sure. No, I I'm a big fan of them and of technology, but we have to use it intelligently and not just repeat what we did before. Now with technical, with other technical tools in 3D, it doesn't make any sense. It's like a car that looks like a coach.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Yeah, good point. And I think you're probably, if you have a chance to correct few things about BMI, there are there is probably a long list, but if you could if you could correct one major misconception about BMI, what would they be?

Simon Dilhas

Oh. Yeah, it is. I have two. Sorry, one is BIM as a software. The BIM is not a software. It's a way of working together and the other one. The big misconception is that you can see BIM separate from the business model. Or, but you can see digitalization and beam is just the.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, term that is often used for digitalization of the industry and you can't digitise. Without thinking about the business model and. This is actually, I think it's the biggest. Yeah, barrier for adoption and why we're struggling so much. Shall I extend a little bit on on this?

Simon Dilhas

What I mean, OK. OK, no.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Go ahead. It's your podcast.

Simon Dilhas

So most companies earn money for selling time.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Simon Dilhas

That's the business model. And what's your incentive of spending more less time doing something if you sell your time?

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's true.

Simon Dilhas

Yes. And. But if you do it clever, I think there's a huge opportunity here.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's a very good point. I really want to allow this. I want to repeat this. This is a business. This is an industry where people are paid for the time that they spend on the tools and we deploy beam to save time and improve quality potentially, but.

Andrea Ciaffi

There is no incentive in saving time.

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's a nonsense.

Simon Dilhas

Yes, exactly. Or it just shows what's wrong with the industry or what we are. So really bad sales people, but we don't manage to sell the value we're providing, but we have to fall back on selling time. This is what's the easiest thing to measure.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's probably what has been measured for a long time. When it was about engineering,

Simon Dilhas

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

but now that's probably all. That's probably the close. Yeah, it's it's really. It's really sad that we are facing this transition and doesn't work. And in terms of like beam. Used as a word to mean digital, I really hear you because this podcast is called the Digital Construction Podcast and we always talk about beam.

Simon Dilhas

Yes. Yeah, and yeah, hopefully in 10 years, we don't talk about BIM anymore this.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

It's it. Hopefully it's just transition time now.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hopefully. Yeah, definitely. Another important aspect is that the people factor in there when we think about digital transformation and how do

Simon Dilhas

None.

Andrea Ciaffi

we do this digital transformation the right way and I know that you work with so many companies as a consultant, as an advisor and how should from your. Point of view, how should companies realistically approach digital transformation?

Simon Dilhas

So the usual way how we do it and how we shouldn't do it is we buy a software I-12, we hire some junior or intern. And tell him you are in charge of digital transformation. Both won't work, so when I work with the company I talk with the senior management and instead of writing a big strategy paper or whatever.

Simon Dilhas

We just have one workshop where we talk about or where we explore what are the business problems you are facing at the moment? What are the challenges you're facing at the moment? And when we think about means how to change this. And yes, digital aspects play a role in it, but very often it's not the first thing we do.

Simon Dilhas

So for example, I work with a structural engineering company and. We started out of how to define work packages better. So. A very basic, but once we have this part, we are ready to move on and use more digital means.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm-hmm.

Simon Dilhas

Start with the basics.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. Yeah. For most companies that need to start to think about digital transformation, you're right. You need to get a basic right and the people factor is also very important.

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

And when you, when you see these companies, what's the biggest mistakes that organisation make when they try to go digital?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, really thinking that one technology will solve it all, be it beam or AI and when everything is focused on this. And what we should do is developing a mindset to be able to iterate quicker because technology is moving so fast. The tools that we are using now in five years.

Simon Dilhas

We will be different, so maybe even in two years it's accelerating an unbelievable speed. And so if you manage as a company to create a mindset in the people. So what we can adapt quickly, iterate, learn, exchange parts of the software landscape and build a workflow, build a process.

Simon Dilhas

But saves some time. And if we have this mindset, we are unbeatable.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And I was thinking about the fact that sometimes people, managers, they want to hire AI experts. And I was reflecting on the fact that I don't know if you've had this concept of

Simon Dilhas

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

spending 10, 000 hours on something before you become an expert at it.

Simon Dilhas

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

And if you do a calculation of how many days is 10,000 hours,

Simon Dilhas

This.

Andrea Ciaffi

even if you don't sleep, it's probably like longer than one year. And then if you then realise how quickly AI changes, it is impossible for a person.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

To spend the time to be an expert in it, because by the time they have learned it,

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

it's really different. So, but when we think about this,

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

these companies, they need to achieve some quick win, they probably come to you with. They want to see a quick change because

Simon Dilhas

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

maybe they how do you they want to see. An immediate change, but how do you balance the quick wins

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

with a long term transformation for those businesses?

Simon Dilhas

Actually we try to identify some very simple steps, something that only takes 2 hours to implement. That's how we begin. Or what? And it's less about what we achieve in this small step and more about this mindset. This skill we are building. So for example, let's say an architectural company.

Simon Dilhas

Are just doing quantity take off for paint work. Let's optimise this process so we really try to break it down to very simple, very small processes. And then the collection of these small processes is a. Yeah. Gaining efficiency. So basically my recipe is first try to be more effective, so do the right things.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

And when we know what are the right things, then start with the ones that are very easy to implement and then step by step. You can implement one always knowing that what you do now will be different after two or three iterations, but we as engineers we always want to have the perfect solution.

Simon Dilhas

And so often we don't start doing or just trying, experimenting, learning and this is what we are trying or what I'm trying in the companies to create this learning mindset. Where it's fine to do mistake or errors or mistakes, but it's we don't hurt.

Simon Dilhas

It's a small experiment. Worst case you do your paint tender by hand as you did it before and when. Yeah, you wasted a few hours. So what?

Andrea Ciaffi

Good point. And you sometimes talk about helping your

Simon Dilhas

The.

Andrea Ciaffi

clients and ask for BIM fees without even mentioning the word BIM in the context of

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

like you are a BIM consultant and you are helping these companies embed BIM.

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

Processes, but how can your clients demand beam in their contract without actually using the without even using the word beam?

Simon Dilhas

None. Yeah, basically it goes back as a client. You don't care how people do the work, you only care about the result. So I don't care if the architect grows by hand or by cut or with pin tools if the result is good.

Simon Dilhas

If I get a good building and if I get the documentation what I need in the quality I need. When everything is fine, So what I tell the clients is we define your data needs. Only what you need for handover or for your digital quality assurance processes.

Simon Dilhas

And. When we just say, look, this is what you have to deliver and. We don't care how you do it. But this is what we need to do our work.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's interesting. So you basically focus on outcomes,

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

so and then in this case, what outcomes should clients be prioritising in their projects requirements?

Simon Dilhas

So I learned with the space, so the room, everything that is between the walls, clients can do a lot of things already. So, and I mean into facility management, get a room, get maybe 10 attributes and it's already better than everything that you get now all these boxes of documents and so on.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah. So often you don't need a lot.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm, interesting. Yeah, I I was. Yeah. Sorry God.

Simon Dilhas

And. So basically start start with the simple things again, don't tell the other person what we have to do and how do I have to work. Just tell them what you need and we can figure out the best way to deliver it.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's good then. And do you see your clients becoming more and more digitally literate or is the gap widening at the moment?

Simon Dilhas

The gap is widening a lot, so I mean interestingly I work a lot with

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Simon Dilhas

public clients. So I think Wade have a big interest in. Yeah, in changing what we get because we're we operate the buildings by themselves as well and we have some kind of cost pressure. Umm. I see that general contractors are very interested in changing.

Simon Dilhas

Because we are part of our, we're in the whole value chain from planning to construction. So we see what we can improve for work. What I don't see is. The companies, who only operate in bare silo, there are very few who who are really interested in digitalising their processes, so that many architects just look at their architecture.

Simon Dilhas

Many engineers only look at engineering. Many investors only say yeah, at the beginning I say I need a house at the end. I I get the house everything in between, I don't care. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, interesting. It's also very interesting to see how be more digital practises are applied in different part of the world. So you're in Switzerland at the moment, even if you are originally from Austria,

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

is that right?

Simon Dilhas

Yes, yes, yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And one of the things that you often talk about in your post is the importance of human to human communication.

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

And what do you, what do you believe it's important? And what do you believe? It's critical in delivering projects with being particular and and why?

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm. Because we are so bad at it. No. What I mean with it is. Umm. We engineers and architects, we forgot to talk to clients in a normal way, so. Let me give you an example. I I teach at the university at. So and the pupils were all professionals for coming in the class.

Simon Dilhas

So it's five days and at the end of these five days, we do exercise. I tell them you are a team of engineers, architects, construction company. Yeah. The client he kicked out the architect but worked on the project before you take over and you got the project only because you promised the client.

Simon Dilhas

But in three weeks. You have everything on the table so that he can take all the decisions necessary. So what? He can go approach to the Himalaya and. Can't be contacted for for another year, but you can finish the project, so that's that's the setting.

Simon Dilhas

And so one person is playing the client and the other one's the team and it always starts in the same way. The architect starts drawing. The engineers are sitting together and upward. And the client. It's just accepting what's going on. Then after some time, the architect says,

Andrea Ciaffi

Me.

Simon Dilhas

OK, let's have a meeting. Maybe he takes the other people with him. Maybe he does the meeting alone. And when we talk about the project, maybe he shows the plans he did discovered, but we never talk about what do you need, what is important for you?

Simon Dilhas

Why did you kick out the former architect? Just with very basic questions, every human would ask, but we are so much focused on, yeah, our engineering, our craft, what we learned, we forget about this human things. And.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's yeah.

Simon Dilhas

This creates so much waste.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. It is true, it is true. It's it's about getting the simple communication right between people. But what, from your point of view, OK, and project teams project teams simplify the way they share information because, yeah, they need to speak. But is there anything else they can do?

Simon Dilhas

Umm. I think if we really speak and ask the question, what do you need to do your work? Or on the other direction I need this or that to do my work and the answer what we

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Simon Dilhas

usually give is I need all the plans, everything ready and when I start my work, but that's ********. We're working iteratively, so maybe.

Andrea Ciaffi

Mm-hmm.

Simon Dilhas

I am very good example from the beginning of my career, but drove me crazy. We were working together with yeah mechanical engineer and I wanted to know from him the duct sizes for. High rise building. So, but I could design my core and the client.

Simon Dilhas

He was the shy, shy and he liked to come to the office and change everything. So the ballroom moving from the basement to the top of the floor and so on. So the engineer always told me, yeah, I need a layout to tell you the duct sizes.

Simon Dilhas

And I told him I need your duct sizes to start doing the layout. And like this, we were in an endless loop and we

Andrea Ciaffi

Interesting.

Simon Dilhas

couldn't break it. But what I wanted was just a reasonable estimation. So what I could continue a hypothesis, but I continue my. Creative work with the client because the error ratio was very important for him and he was already in this mindset of I want to do the perfect solution.

Simon Dilhas

So we're very different phases. So iterative exploring with the client, what do you really mean versus engineering developing one solution? And at this time I I wasn't able to solve this problem. With him. So I didn't have the skill set to talk about it.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm. That's you touched an interesting point about the gap between people in different disciplines, right? Because one come with from with a point

Simon Dilhas

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

of view, another one has a different point of view and sometimes they don't communicate. But from your point of view, what are some practical steps that leaders can take to bridge the side or between?

Simon Dilhas

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Different disciplines.

Simon Dilhas

Really asking what do you need or saying I need this and not I need everything but look I need to do this or that and for this it would be nice to have the room areas. Can you provide a list with the area the height?

Simon Dilhas

And to use and with this I already can do my estimated ventilation calculations, whatever. So really break it down. Don't assume that the other person knows. What you need or.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, probably they don't. Probably they don't know.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah. No, of course not. It's super complex and the more specialities we have, the more we need to talk.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. So we've been talking about the importance of the communication between humans, right? So human to human.

Simon Dilhas

Move.

Andrea Ciaffi

But all of these humans are working with computers, with machines, and sometimes it gets hard even to understand how to interact with machines

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

in a proper and efficient way. So for example, thinking about people.

Simon Dilhas

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

Have to understand the data that is in this project. So how do they turn this data into insights that they can actually use?

Simon Dilhas

None.

Andrea Ciaffi

But how do you see the relationship between people and machines evolving in

Simon Dilhas

OK.

Andrea Ciaffi

our industry? Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah. Again, one of the topics where our communication needs to get better. So. Machines or automations are great. So consistent input runner automation you get a consistent output. Very simple. And most of the time we fail because the input we have is not consistent enough.

Simon Dilhas

So we spend hours or days and normalising the input quantities, aware what is his job? He's redrawing on APDF. Everything what is already here. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, space for the time, right?

Simon Dilhas

He's and #1. He's paid for the time and #2.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

He doesn't trust what he gets.

Andrea Ciaffi

True.

Simon Dilhas

And he is not able to talk about what he really needs because he never thought about it. He's so much into his his way of working, how he always did it. And. So really understand your process when you can define what are the input requirements and when you can talk about these ones to the person who is providing the data and I mean.

Simon Dilhas

We started abstract BIM. Yeah, with this idea, what is the minimum you need to do a formal simulation or a cost calculation? And. The minimum is. When you have the spaces and where to use, you can calculate so much around it, so interior wall is just the emptiness between two spaces, so nobody has to draw a wall.

Simon Dilhas

You can calculate it. When you calculate it, this wall knows it's between two spaces with with their use and in Switzerland a staircase wall. Usually it's a concrete wall. So with Fire Protection 90 minutes and sound protection and so on and so on and so on.

Simon Dilhas

So just by having very simple information, you can automate so much on top of it. And the moment you understand this, your whole practise can change so. Coming back from this linear process of somebody draws everything when the quantities aware comes, measures everything towards I have AI do a layout, I run the algorithm, I get quantities back, I connect them to that my cost calculation.

Simon Dilhas

I go to the client and tell him look, it costs so much. Let's now optimise. And this feedback circle can be 10 minutes if you do it clever. Instead of six month maybe for one phase. So it has a huge impact.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And when we think about the communication, human versus machine, there is also this interesting part which is the non-technical people, the non-technical stakeholders that are involved, right and they try to,

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

they may want to use beam data at some point. And how do you think we can make beam data truly usable for this non-technical stakeholders?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, that's very important role, so. Actually, I think we can learn a lot from the past. When we drew a plan. We prepared a plan for somebody, so it was a filtered view on all the data and we with the BIM model we have to do the same.

Simon Dilhas

So let's say when you're on the construction side. And you just give the construction managers the construction people, the whole BIM model and tell them, yeah, you zoom in and here and click wherever we say, are you crazy? But when you prepare a view where we only

Andrea Ciaffi

They're up. Should not talk on.

Simon Dilhas

see.

Andrea Ciaffi

The amici in the restaurant.

Simon Dilhas

What we need, we only see the concrete work we have to do. On this day. With one click, then we're perfectly fine and happy. So you really have to think how to prepare the data for the stakeholder. Not just hand over all the data and say here be happy.

Simon Dilhas

Take whatever you need.

Andrea Ciaffi

I can't. And can you share with us an example of how good human to machine communication improve the roject outcome?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, I I mentioned this this abstract bin workflow with the cost before and we had one project for example with a general contractor where we got the plans. When we we did a simple 3D model based on the plans, just the spaces and the windows did run it through the process and after three hours he got all the quantities.

Simon Dilhas

For his bit. So work where he would have spent two weeks. In three hours.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yes, please satisfying.

Simon Dilhas

Meaning he had two more weeks to improve his offer.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And we touched on human to human communication. Then we said, yeah, but there is also this human to machine communication. And finally there is the machine to

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

machine communication, which often leads to automation and.

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

Workflow efficiency or integration of software across different software platform from your point of view, like how important is it is machine to

Simon Dilhas

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

machine communication in creating this digital integrations.

Simon Dilhas

Oh. I think for the future it will become more and more crucial, but first we have to manage to. Human human, human machine. Because when we know this, we can start automating more and more of these workflows and connecting them and and really deciding as well when not to connect when do we have to have a human in the loop.

Simon Dilhas

For quality assurance, so I think it's really about process design. To work with you.

Andrea Ciaffi

And yeah, sometimes like when you think about the communication between one machine, another machine or one software, another software we found sometimes inefficiencies, but what are these inefficiencies today is where one system doesn't. Talk to another system.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, I mean usually. Or in usual projects we don't have machine to machine communication, I would say. So very, it's not often that we can really exchange data seamlessly in our industry. I have one example from wood construction companies. Who started 10 years ago to send where cat files to the wood provider and he had the same programme and just send it to the machine and waited.

Simon Dilhas

Cut it. So this this is one of the good examples how it could work.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And we often debate between choosing open standards versus vendor lock in. So you pick a software and you stick with

Simon Dilhas

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

that. Do you have a preference between choosing 1 vendor and then using the entire system of that vendor versus using? When standards.

Simon Dilhas

So I'm clearly on the side of open standards. I mean, as a pirate, you have to be.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, to be.

Simon Dilhas

No, actually I think it's a myth to believe what all the different software tools that one company did buy together work seamlessly. So I I don't want to say, tell any names now, but everybody knows what I'm talking about. It just doesn't work.

Simon Dilhas

These are all separate profit centres and it doesn't matter if we belong to one company or not. The we're not integrated better than different software tools from different companies. And where it's not necessarily a business case behind it to integrate them better.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's a. It's a real pain point in the industry.

Simon Dilhas

So. Yes, but I think we can learn a lot from under other industries to really go to the basics. So CSV file. Great for data exchange secure for the future IFC. It's not the best file format, but it's a great ontology. It's a text format.

Simon Dilhas

It will be readable in 20 years. None. So quite future proof, so much better than. Yeah, a closed system, but updates every two or three years and where you can't open a old version in five years.

Andrea Ciaffi

That's incredible.

Simon Dilhas

Yeah. So for me it's a no pray now.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, it's incredible. The longevity of these files you've been working on a project three years later. You can't open the file. Incredible.

Simon Dilhas

Yes, yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

It's pretty bad. And yeah, and thinking about the future of beam and digital construction. What do you hope to see change in the way beam is practising the next five years or so?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah. So I hope in five to 10 years, we don't talk about BIM anymore. That's number one. That's my big hope. So the BIM pirate can relax somewhere on his island in peace. Go back to doing projects again. Maybe that's the big hope.

Simon Dilhas

I realistically speaking, I don't think it will happen, but what I see is what we we start connecting better. We start using open standards. Speckled for example, I think it's a great initiative for where he started. And I think stuff like that will.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's it.

Simon Dilhas

Will help, so reducing the silos and more thinking about the flow of information. This will. Be the topic of the next 5-10 years.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, hopefully. And another big topic is automation and how far do you think automation can really take us in construction?

Simon Dilhas

Very very far. I think what is technological possible? Even without talking about AI just usual automation with tools available 20 years ago. You could do so much. We had one one project with a wood construction company where we used this automatic calculated walls from the abstract BIM and calculated the production ready.

Simon Dilhas

Wall Assembly inside of these volumes. So basically we could have sent this to the machine to produce it. Only fully automated. So basically the architect only would have to draw a layout like in a very early design phase. Press the button a system is applied to it.

Simon Dilhas

And the system has all the logic already inside for production. Doable. It's expensive to do it, so it's again a question of the business case behind it.

Andrea Ciaffi

Hmm.

Simon Dilhas

Do you have the sales power to get enough projects to do something like that? It's not a technological problem, it's a sales problem.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, I really like your. I really like your your point of view

Simon Dilhas

But tomorrow.

Andrea Ciaffi

when you talk about really the sales problem related to beam is often people think that some of these problems are technological problem, but really it's not about how you sell something. We need to improve in that in that. Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

And I think that's the biggest problem we are having in the industry.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah.

Simon Dilhas

We don't know how to sell our services.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And I I guess that leads to my last question for today, which is if you have one message for today's digital leaders, what would it be?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah, I think it's really this fix your business case. Think about how you earn money and how you can earn money by delivering better projects faster. And with this everything can follow. And all the frustration that the digital leaders in the industry have.

Simon Dilhas

The root cause is what we work for businesses with the wrong business model behind it or outdated business model, but it's not compatible with. The digital way.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's a. It's a very good point and thank you very much for today's episode. We are at the end if people want to reach out to you, where can they find you? Where can they find?

Simon Dilhas

And.

Andrea Ciaffi

What can they collaborate with you and reach out to you?

Simon Dilhas

Yeah. So the easiest way is always LinkedIn.