The Reality for Young BIM Technicians with Dane Carroll

Andrea Ciaffi

Hi, Dane. Welcome to the Digital Construction podcast. How are you today?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Good. How are you going?

Andrea Ciaffi

So today in this episode, we talk with Dane Carroll. He's a senior drafter at BGNE, but also his own business. He's a director at Sunday Consulting Group, and he's also the co-founder of Sunday House projects. So today we are talking,

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

we are going to talk about the art of drafting and the importance of learning your trade.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

And our relationships and mentorship can help you help you shape your your own career. I'm very excited for this episode day, but before we start, I'd like to ask you, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received in your career?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So it's not really, I guess it's a bit of almost life advice really, but it came from my granddad. So it was basically to be a follow a leader, not a follower. And obviously I've learned a lot learned along along the way from different managers and things like that as well and had different advice along the way, but.

Dane Carroll

It's about basically having your own thoughts and perspectives to be a leader, not a follower. That's how I look at it and question situations. What went well, what didn't reflect on what you've learnt from every experience. And don't accept that you know this is how we've always done it.

Dane Carroll

So I'd always look for improvements and better ways. So that's how I basically look at my career, but also it sort of bleeds into other parts of my life as well. So yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, that's definitely certainly a good growth mindset to have. I like that. I like that. Thank you for that.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

For sharing that with us. And you worked a lot in,

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

in the bridge bridging space and you spent spent many years working bridge and infrastructure projects. I'm just keen to hear from your point of view, what makes beam and drafting different in this space. If you compare, for example with buildings or any other vertical projects.

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah. So obviously my experience is mostly in bridges, got small amount of experience in buildings early in my career and obviously working alongside a lot of buildings people. But mainly they're dealing with the complex horizontal and vertical geometry. So yeah, we're dealing with like a lot more minimal tolerances accuracies.

Dane Carroll

A lot more critical from what I've found, multiple interfaces as well. So you're dealing with civil Rd rail utilities, so it's a lot broader I'd feel. And then integrating that that geometry with like the constructability side of things as well, bridges tend to be a lot less forgiving.

Dane Carroll

Then say buildings or vertical projects that I've worked on, yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I wonder, what are the biggest challenges when you work on on bridges? Because I think probably when you work on buildings, I want to guess many people may say is the coordination part that's challenging, especially in the ceiling space.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

But what's what's hard when you what's the hardest part of working on bridges?

Dane Carroll

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

I guess.

Dane Carroll

It's mainly like the dealing with the curvatures and the like. The geometry and the cross falls of bridges. So obviously the programmes that we're using with Revit and mainly that's what we're using in the industry. It started off as the architectural buildings like software.

Dane Carroll

Slowly it's becoming more and more incorporated in terms of like infrastructure, but we're having to use a lot more, say Dynamo or stuff. That's automation integration that we can manipulate the geometry.

Dane Carroll

So and then I guess the as well with that you have the complex sort of geometry you have, if there's any design changes so then when they arise, it's a lot more complicated to change the geometry. So a lot of the information we need to get is upfront, so the importance.

Dane Carroll

Of planning and information early is critical, as I would say a lot more to the bridge space infrastructure and then also dealing with government state governments. So you've got your different standards across NSW, Big Roads, Main Roads, WA. So every state has their own presentation styles, terminologies.

Dane Carroll

So dealing with that also is a factor.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, I'm sure we talk about that difference in

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

different geographies later. One interesting point about the role of

Dane Carroll

Yeah, yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

the digital engineers or they used to be called drafter. We can think about what the right name is. It's the arts related to these projects and taking.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Right of your trade and the work that you do, you often talk about the art of drafting, and I'm just keen to know what does it mean to you?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So, obviously, back in the day, people used to be on the drawing board.

Dane Carroll

That was a bit before, but even my mother-in-law is a building designer and she started on the drawing board, so obviously the art of drafting is quite, I guess, stemmed from that in terms of the presentation skills and how we interpret the information, either whether or not it's from the engineer or an architect.

Dane Carroll

And then transferring that into like information so that we can build that those on drawings to the construction construction guys. So but the drafting is basically it's just a visual communication at a high level technical level. So it's about understanding why the detail matters.

Dane Carroll

So it's not just the modelling side. Obviously at the moment we're in this transition of creating models, but we still have documentation which is still very important to like our clients. The model is obviously important, but for the lower end and medium sized projects, it's all about documentation.

Dane Carroll

The higher end, obviously the larger projects. Infrastructure projects, buildings and things like that. You're sort of $50 million and above. The model is very important, but majority of the work we're still doing on a day-to-day basis is heavily reliant on documentation. So when I say taking pride, it's about producing that information.

Dane Carroll

So that someone on site or in a factory can build from that confidently, and so the craftsmanship of that is like clarity, accuracy and then the intention that you're putting into that information. So it's it's clear for those people that are building from it.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And I've seen like we all have seen these

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

photos on even on Google of like this very large room full of very big tables

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

with people drawing by end. And it was incredible. Like the work that they used to do and.

Dane Carroll

Right. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Do you think? Yeah. Do you think that younger technicians today are missing the sense of craft and pride that came from that traditional drafting? Now that lots of things have changed.

Dane Carroll

Yeah, I think it's also them coming into the industry of where it's at in terms of the software or the different selections and what's what's available. So I guess they're becoming and then the automation side of it with even with AOI starting to come in and incorporate into what we do on our day-to-day task, so.

Dane Carroll

But they're becoming more heavily reliant on the software and its automation. I feel. So the expectation that is the software would produce the final answer for us. So it's and it's not the case. So I think we're sold this, I guess that the industry is like an AI is the, it's the finished product.

Dane Carroll

And Rabbit is a finished product. It will produce what we what we put into the model and it'll produce the drawings. It'll do everything for us. So and especially like like I said, the industry. So we're living in this modern fast-paced world with like where social media say like LinkedIn and things like creates pressure.

Dane Carroll

But what we're looking at it from it's a speed over quality because you're seeing, I guess post about the end product.

Dane Carroll

You've never seen the journey about where it started, the troubleshooting going through all that and then creating the documentation and you just see the finished product say the model at the end, the visualisation and it looks like that's. Where and that's sometimes, that's months and months, years sometimes to create that end product and we just see that a snippet and go, that's what we need to create.

Dane Carroll

So and then I guess the next generation that's coming in, in the industry, I get sucked into it myself. I look at the final product, I go wow, that's amazing. I should be producing that, but it's not the reality all the time too, so.

Dane Carroll

I mean having the fundamentals and patience is becoming less common in our industry, so.

Andrea Ciaffi

And you touch on on speed and the need of like delivering a project faster, yes, probably the rise of these software and packages. And I probably changed the situation a lot for the for the industry,

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

but how do you from your point of view, how do you balance? Speed and efficiency. While we try to also maintain quality and attention to the details in the output.

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So I guess everything sort of ties back into, I guess they call it like an iron triangle. It's the project management. So it's like a triangle of time, cost and quality. So the key, I guess with that is understanding this comes from experience as well.

Dane Carroll

It's not saying that you can just come straight in. Out of like TAFE or university it's it's it's you learn as you go and so it's like a key understanding of the scope, the client requirements and expectations of the clients. So it's about communicating early.

Dane Carroll

And being honest with the client about the constraints. So I guess how to finish faster is like we could increase the budget and resources or simplify the scope to, but the only thing is that sometimes impacts the quality and the features that you're going to provide with that so.

Dane Carroll

My approaches evolved with my experience, so better judgement of what to adjust and when. So it's like if a client I guess needs something done really fast, but unfortunately and they need it done cheap, it's the quality's gonna drop there. So it's about finding.

Dane Carroll

Having that communication early, I believe and really setting out the expectations of the client and what do they actually require? Do they need the model? What needs to be in the model? What data is that a requirement for the delivery even? Is it just documentation?

Dane Carroll

So it's it's there's a lot of variables there, but it's it's a saying that you sort of gain experience with. And with different clients and thing and having that having that communication and early on in the project I think goes a long way.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And with all of this uncertainty and

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

doubts and it's very difficult to understand what to do.

Dane Carroll

Play song.

Andrea Ciaffi

And I think that the role of the mentor of a good mentor could be really important in somebody's career. And from your point of view, I know you're passionate about mentorship. I just want to know from your point where.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

You do find the like if you want to advise younger and younger digital

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

engineers, where can, where do you find your your key mentors

Dane Carroll

OK.

Andrea Ciaffi

that can influence your career and and what? Yeah, what can you learn from them?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah. So I was fortunate enough to have good mentors throughout my whole career. I feel and then, but like a key mentor I had early on when I first started. So I was 17. Straight out of school and didn't really even know what drafting was at that time.

Dane Carroll

But I applied for the role and then I was fortunate enough to get it, but that was that was the gentleman named Mark Sipple. But he was a product of. The generation of coming through the government and these are the people that were making the standards, setting the standards.

Dane Carroll

So he works for the Department of Main Roads. It's went into RMS now. It's called Transport for NSW. So he was a government, he was a product of that government system and basically the people that wrote the standards so. It's not just like what was technically like.

Dane Carroll

He taught us as well, was about the people management and the professionalism, whereas I was saying I was fresh out of school, entering the workforce. He was a big, I guess guidance in how I interpreted the industry and how I how I needed to work.

Dane Carroll

And then his his approach sort of and shaped my foundation in drafting and the standards and my work ethic. So. But from there, I guess. It's finding it doesn't necessarily need to be a leader. It can be a co-worker in terms of who to learn, learn from, but it's about picking people that are got the willingness to teach because and then also.

Dane Carroll

Being open to having that mentorship, like being able to sit under one I've found in my career, it's much easier. I've just asked the question about hey, this is what I want to know. I'd like to learn. I found that, you know, you're.

Dane Carroll

You're really doing well in your career and these kind of things and just being open with the conversation saying, is there anything, any time that you can spend with me or is there something like you can teach me, even if it's after work or things like this in your career that can really sort of set you on a the correct path and you'll find I I found most people.

Dane Carroll

Or to be honest, everyone, I've sort of come across. Has been open about that, especially if you're saying that they're great at their job and stuff, their willingness is like you sort of, I guess, boosting their ego a little bit, maybe even, I don't know.

Dane Carroll

But it's everyone in the industry is pretty open about sharing and wanting to like, really. Help the next generation, like if you, especially if you had a good mentor like I said, I had a good mentor and I feel like it's kind of not an obligation, but I want to help the next generation or the next people or anyone, even if they're later in their career.

Dane Carroll

But I have a lot of people that even reach out through LinkedIn. And it could just be a question they say, hey, I want to get into the industry. Is there any suggestions and it's like. I don't have to reply back, but I feel like if I was in that seat I'd I'd want someone to reach back out to me and just give me.

Dane Carroll

It could be anything saying, hey, this is how I did my things through my career or suggestion. Hey, pick up the phone and call these people. So it's just, I think if we're if we wanted to see the next generation and hand it over to like I'm I'm only 35, but I've been in the industry for two decades almost.

Dane Carroll

So it's like I'm still young in the industry, but I've got a lot of experience, but I feel like it's my obligation to sort of give back to the next generation that's coming through the younger people that. Coming into the industry, if we want to leave it in a better place than what are?

Dane Carroll

OK, I guess it is now. So yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. That's such an important role. The role of the mentors and how do you approach that? You mentioned that you are trying to help younger technicians, but how do you approach mentoring younger technician or team members today? Like,

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

how do you help them?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So like I said, I I take little bits obviously from where what I found useful in my during my apprenticeship and other people that I've worked under. What what I found helpful for me everyone's different. Obviously some people get more I guess some more.

Dane Carroll

Progress quicker if you put an arm around them, give them more support or some people would like to work by themselves and have self driven.

Dane Carroll

So it's all about who you're dealing with as well in terms of like the people around you, but just having patience I found with me having patience in high standards from early on and saying, you know this is the expectation that we expect.

Dane Carroll

The and our clients have got high expectations too, so I'm I'm still protecting them in a way and I'm not letting them on their safety net in a way. So I'm not gonna let them fall, but give them high standards, be patient with them, they're gonna make.

Dane Carroll

Like these young people like coming in an issue. You make mistakes. It's it's all about learning someone who gives you gives you responsibility as well. Not just takes all the responsibility away from you and just gives you like a mundane task. You got to give people making, I guess young.

Dane Carroll

People make them feel more important. Give them, let them make mistakes, even if it's a a big thing, like a major project, they can work on and stuff, but as long as you've got the safety net there, it's like you can regain it back.

Dane Carroll

If there is like a mistake, it's everything's fixable, but so. And then someone that can explain the context, not just give you the task. So it's like, oh, go do this. So like I said, my mentor early on, a lot of it was like really explain the fundamentals why it was done, why it's done like this and how it can be done and can we improve it.

Dane Carroll

Just because it's been done like that before even looking with myself, I had no experience, but he was always giving me opportunities to say is do you think there's a way we can make this better? And there wasn't always. I couldn't like always see what was done.

Dane Carroll

But because I'm still learning. But there was always opportunities there for me to, I guess improve.

Dane Carroll

Been done before and then as time you build self-confidence and you start to get more resilient and stuff so you start to I guess push yourself a bit more into projects in terms of oh, I think I can fix this and you just make start making suggestions and it really makes people I guess.

Dane Carroll

Like it almost fast tracks their career in a way without. Obviously time is the best way to get experience, but I've I've worked with people that didn't have such good mentors at the early on and they're still they were still trying to find their feet after 4-5 years in terms of like having that building up that resilience.

Dane Carroll

And being able to feel like they can come forward with suggestions. But like I said, I was fortunate enough to have someone in my career that allowed me to do that early on and really showed me how what a good mentor was like.

Dane Carroll

So. But I think if you if you have people in and around you, it's about finding that person. Like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to be your directly. It could be a senior. It could be a co-worker that's a similar level that you think they're doing good stuff over there.

Dane Carroll

Can I possibly talk to them and see how I could improve? Or could they show me something so there's always someone that's willing to help. You just got to find the right person.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, I totally agree with on the importance of mentors. Even I've been very, very lucky in my career,

Dane Carroll

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

having great mentors and learning a lot from them. And one of the things that mentors can help you with is understanding how to

Dane Carroll

I.

Andrea Ciaffi

become adaptable in your career and adapted to different sectors, for example and. Your work across many different sectors and I wonder how this experience has shaped your approach to your work.

Dane Carroll

OK. Yeah. So like I said, so most of my career like I've spent a lot of other time in other disciplines and things, but most of my career was built especially earlier in my career, four or five years was just solely bridges during that time.

Dane Carroll

I did have so exposure to say. Parts of civil like with bridges comes along like the civil and the rail, the maritime coastal elements. So and then in that in that apprenticeship stage also had exposure to the buildings working like 3 months under a buildings team also working under.

Dane Carroll

Tunnels team up in legacy way up in Brisbane for six plus months so but that gave me the early on with the bridges and working with different disciplines in terms of like the rail and the civil gave me like a holistic view of the industry and that those elements and I guess what it made it made it easier to collaborate across different disciplines perceived.

Dane Carroll

Coordination issues. And then I guess it sort of helped me understand, I guess that all the parts of the infrastructure and how it connects together.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah. And from your point of view, is it better for a technician to

Dane Carroll

Right. Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

specialised deeply into one specific thing or become more adaptable across this different disciplines?

Dane Carroll

From my experience, I guess early in your career most drafting roles are naturally specialised, so it's like you when you like, say if I started my career when I first applied for my role, when I was 17. There was 3 roles going at Cardinal, so I used to.

Dane Carroll

I did my apprenticeship with Cardinal. They're now called Stantec. So there was 3 roles. It was a civil drafting role, which was the roads, and then buildings, drafting and bridge drafting. I applied for three. I got the I got a call back or an e-mail back at the time saying.

Dane Carroll

Successful in terms of my arm to go in for an interview and that was for the bridge drafting apprenticeship. So I spent four years specialising in like structural bridge drafting, so that was doing 4 days on the job. One day at TAFE for four years I happened to complete it a little bit earlier and got signed off and then from there I was a qualified draught.

Dane Carroll

After still Cardinal kept me on. But within that when I was doing the four years, like I said before, I spent three months with the buildings team and that was just through opportunities that I just came about through internal. So there'd be like downtime in the bridges team.

Dane Carroll

The buildings drafter manager, drafting manager, reached out and said, hey, have you got anyone up there that would like to come down and help? And I was always sort of the first one to go. Yeah, I'll help. I'll put my arm up and then.

Dane Carroll

So I went down there for three months and then and it was. Just about taking those opportunities and the same with the Brisbane work on legacy way. I was on the tunnels team up there, so I had a senior engineer I used to work with.

Dane Carroll

He got seconded up there and he said he reached back and said to me and said Dane, would you like to come up? And I said yes. So it's like about these opportunities that come as they come. I wasn't. I was always.

Dane Carroll

It's obviously a part of the bridges team, but there's always opportunities in your career where someone will offer you, I guess, a different role and a different discipline or to help with a different discipline because they've got, they've got to get a project out.

Dane Carroll

And I was always the first one to say, yeah, I'd love to help. So I didn't really like sitting still and I wasn't one to sort of sit on the Internet and just. Scroll through the Internet on my day when the days weather was slow or I did spend a lot of my time in my in my apprenticeship scanning and stuff.

Dane Carroll

Even during the because I got employed just as the GFC sort of happened. So there was quite there was a quiet period there and I was just scanning all documents in, but I always tried to. I was always the first one. Like yeah, I'll be happy to scan the documents.

Dane Carroll

And create a database of our bridges and things like that. So and then go to legacy way for Brisbane and the building team. But along that way I think that mindset has just opened up a lot more opportunities in my career and even today like with this podcast, it wasn't something, it's not something I'd normally do.

Dane Carroll

It's like jump on a podcast. It's my first one, but yeah, it was something that I was like, obviously it does make you a bit scared of what could happen, but I felt I feel like the opportunity of missing out and not taking and talking to yourself today or talking to the Community in this industry and.

Dane Carroll

Outweighs the opportunity of like not taking that opportunity and missing out on it. So. And if you do, if you take pride in what you do and you actually want to, you put yourself out there. I feel like you get things back in terms of opportunities and people can see that.

Dane Carroll

From those opportunities, I said yes to he's he's happy to like. Well when they move on to another company or whatnot, there's those opportunities later on as well, so.

Andrea Ciaffi

I'm very glad that you accepted to participate to this podcast because now you're sharing your knowledge and your experience with everybody else. And yeah, thank you for your very first podcast. Part of being adaptable is.

Dane Carroll

That's right.

Andrea Ciaffi

Making sure that you can adapt to this industry that continues to evolve all the

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

time, and I just wondered how do you how do you stay core and how do you keep yourself updated?

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

I couldn't maybe learning or yeah, how do you step that in this space?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah. So I've remained obviously a specialist in my original discipline like bridges. So I still work in that industry today. But like I said before, staying yes to new opportunities, adding more strings to your bow really. So like I said, I've, I've, I've worked in buildings, tunnels.

Dane Carroll

And they even help Rhodes guys out when there's been on JVS where they need an extra hand. And I've said yes to the opportunity. So each new experience in creates overall value to use to yourself and not just and just and the company that you're working with as well.

Dane Carroll

So which makes you in return more valuable to that company. Overall in your career, so I think saying yes to those kind of opportunities and it's also diversifying your skills makes you more adaptable across the projects and then the industries that you're working in and teams.

Dane Carroll

Taking on new challenges that build your self-confidence like I touched on earlier, accelerate and it can accelerate your career growth as well. So you're like I said, instead of sitting there scrolling through the Internet or whatnot, you're taking the next opportunity and going to be helping the buildings team out for the next few months.

Dane Carroll

Else that you can bring back to even new things that you're working with, new team members, they they might do something a bit better than what you currently do in the bridges team. And taking those little bits and pieces of I guess skills that you've learned and then trying to bring back into your own your own career and your own teams and stuff, so.

Dane Carroll

Diversifying helps and then it helps you understand the interface is better. I guess it makes you a better problems overall.

Andrea Ciaffi

And something I found very inspiring about your career is your decision to go

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

back to format learning. So personally, like many other people I've done it the

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

other way, like the traditional way I've studied engineering. And then I entered the workforce. And I've seen many people that didn't have that opportunity or didn't make that decision at that time. And at some point I said no,

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

it's too late. I would either want to go back to formal learning. I just wanted to. So you have decided to go back to university and study digital engineering for infrastructure at University of. Just Sydney. I just. I'm just keen to hear what motivates you

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

to go back to formal learning when you are already establishing in the workforce.

Dane Carroll

I don't know. Sometimes I ask myself that it gets harder as as you get older it definitely does,

Andrea Ciaffi

Ha ha.

Dane Carroll

but especially because I've got two young children and stuff. So, but there's always. I guess the curiosity of in in terms of always wanting to learn and yeah, so I completed that UTS course back in June, but since then I've done other things like even at the start of the year I worked with, I was doing a course with.

Dane Carroll

There's applied technology NSW government so they they release courses even they've got free courses and UTS have got free courses and things like that. These weren't free courses that I did, but there's just the introduction into like what the the courses they that they hold.

Dane Carroll

So anything to do around digital engineering and BIM. So I did an advanced BIM course as well. With the Institute of Applied Technology, like I said at the start of the year and that was like parallel while I was doing UTS.

Dane Carroll

So it was quite, quite a lot I took on but and then even like it's just self learning as well, like even in my own time obviously YouTube now these days like there's just so much content out there that you can just learn at the click of the finger.

Dane Carroll

And then, yeah, so it's like it's it's about exploring, being curious in your job whether or not like that UTS course that I finished opens up new opportunities, it wasn't really about that. I think it was about me trying to.

Dane Carroll

I guess gain a better understanding of how I can be better at my job than I'm at now, and I guess in return it does open up new opportunities. It definitely does, but it wasn't like I wasn't looking for, I guess a fast response in terms of like, oh, I'm also going to change careers.

Dane Carroll

It was just adding like more strings to my bow, I guess. Like I said before, saying yes to opportunities act like and then I'm always so actively sort of learning. I guess like I said, like off YouTube and things like that. If something I feel like I don't know or even off others that I say oh, their career's gone quite well.

Dane Carroll

So like one of the first things I did when I. Just recently joined BJ and E in the Newcastle team. I've been there for eight months now, but within the first two months I reached out to the digital engineering lead in in Victoria and just asked about how could the course that I'm doing help me progress my career?

Dane Carroll

And it was just about actively reaching out to people, and he was willing to help and just give me advice. And like I said about before about having good mentorships like good mentors and things like that. It's just about reaching out to. And he could have easily said no. Or I haven't got time.

Dane Carroll

And he, he, he did take time to, I guess, speak to me and give me some career advice and things like that just to sort of. Direct me and maybe and whether or not I decide to go that way, I don't know yet, but it's just about in terms of like full full time DE.

Dane Carroll

But at the moment I'm enjoying what I'm doing and then just adding more strings to my bow. Like I said before, making myself more valuable. With myself and to the company I work for, and then also when I learn things, I like actively teaching others as well.

Dane Carroll

So it's not just like once I've learned something, it's for me. I like actually trying to in court and that that also reinforces what you've learned, I guess in a way, so. Gives you that confidence that what you have been learning is actually, I guess soaking in and then that you do have confidence in what you're doing.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's this mindset that you have this mindset of lifelong learning that opens,

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

that creates the environment for you to drive. And it's not just the course you did, it's the mindset.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

You have that then will help you shape your career, I think and.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

I just. I just wonder if there is anything,

Dane Carroll

Yes.

Andrea Ciaffi

any major lessons you've learned recently that you wish you knew 10 years ago could be related to anything?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So I'm sort of, I guess I'm not like one to look back with regret ever. I guess you can always look back and go. Oh, I wish I knew that 10 years ago or wish I knew that 15 years ago. I try not to dwell on it too much.

Dane Carroll

Like I wish I knew this earlier. But I think it's just about believing like embracing, say, mistakes. And rather than avoiding them, so anything that you've learned on projects or saying I've got like how you said, I wish. Wish I knew that earlier and stuff.

Dane Carroll

So it's just about taking the responsibility for the mistakes and and it's a major. I'm a driver of my personal professional growth, so if you learnt saying that you often I feel like if you've learnt saying you often grow more from than saying wrong then say doing it right and that's what I teach to a lot of like say their apprentices.

Dane Carroll

Or even other people that I've mentored in my career so far. I'm I sort of reinforced that. It's OK to make a mistake. And I I almost encourage it sometimes, because then it opens up the opportunity to have conversations about what went wrong and how can we fix it.

Dane Carroll

And and like I said, I'm always there to be that safety net. So it never goes too far. But in terms of explaining to them and maybe it also opens up the opportunity to say maybe they didn't quite understand everything that they that you thought they did because sometimes not everyone speaks up.

Dane Carroll

At the start and goes ask a lot of questions, whereas I'm quite a curious person, so I'll ask a lot of questions and sometimes it's not even related directly to what we're doing, but it's more just me thinking beyond and saying OK or how does this affect this or what would this do or it's not even going to really affect my job, like even the engineering side of it could be or why is there?

Dane Carroll

Or was that was that bending there and things like that? It's just more being curious about what I'm doing. But that's just my mindset. But in terms of like the I'm saying, when they make mistakes, it opens up the the conversation to have that maybe they didn't understand, understand it so and.

Dane Carroll

It it builds resilience for them and then it helps them make better decision making in the future. So like my mindset is just own it and learn from it, move forward. So that's my mindset, I guess I don't really try not to look back too much, but yeah, I I enjoy like obviously I've gotten to where I am today based on.

Dane Carroll

I guess what I've done throughout my career, and it's it's sometimes it's. I guess say like what? What else can we? What? What else can I learn? Like what I'm saying now. So I feel like if I don't know something now I have the curiosity to say and dive into it and go how can I learn that now?

Dane Carroll

Not worry about what happened 10 years ago so much.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely don't live with the regrets.

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

Always move forward. You touched before the beginning of the

Dane Carroll

I.

Andrea Ciaffi

episodes. The point of around working in different, different for different states, different places,

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

and you work across multiple States and.

Dane Carroll

Play song.

Andrea Ciaffi

All difference are project standards and delivery expectations around the country.

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's definitely similarities overall in the design and drafting principles across the states. NSW, Victoria, Queensland, WA, SA and things like that. So but each state uses slightly different terminologies for elements and components, so that's one little thing. Sometimes and then each has preferred products or construction methods of like say different types of beams.

Dane Carroll

They prefer to use or railings and things like that on the bridges. So and I guess the differences also show how how the elements are built or sequenced so delivery. Requirements vary, especially around information that must be like included in the models.

Dane Carroll

How how the documentation is presented slightly, slight differences in terms of the annotation, how how, what, how you call things up, even the the leaders and things like that. Sections that they require and the level of detail and just the overall formatting expectations.

Dane Carroll

So every state has its own in-house style of expectations for a project and how it should be packaged and delivered.

Andrea Ciaffi

And you've worked in different projects and probably with different teams. And one of the challenges that sometimes people face is like integrated themselves quickly into a new team or into a new project culture. Is there any lessons that you've learned that can help people navigate?

Andrea Ciaffi

Challenge of integrating themselves in your into a new team or into a new

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

project culture.

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So a lot of, I guess my career is like how I look at it is early on your job is to pretty much adapt and adopt. So it's if you're moving into a a current team or like it could be a JV or something like that, it's just.

Dane Carroll

Go in, adopt and adapt to how the team currently operates. So that's like my first sort of protocol. I don't want to go in, so I want to focus on hitting the ground running straight away so that we can I can help the team to deliver and this learning their existing systems and their workflows so.

Dane Carroll

And then from there, I guess it's just about taking the time to. Understanding how the team works before just running in and suggesting changes, I think it's not the best way to sort of go about things, but with that, there'll be time to do those things.

Dane Carroll

So it's it's about respecting the people that are there already and the work they've done. And then as you settle in, you can start offering improvements and suggestions.

Dane Carroll

And every team or project will present chances to showcase your skills or provide solutions as issues start to arise or there's problems that they need someone to rely on or someone you need to put your hand up for an opportunity. That's where I'd sort of normally say, hey, maybe can I suggest this?

Dane Carroll

Or yeah, I'd like to take that opportunity. So the key is to building like just trust and respect before you just try to influence and change things and it just takes time. It's not something that you can just unless you're like, oh, you're bringing specialists in like that someone's. Well, even then, like, I'm a specialist, obviously.

Dane Carroll

Bridge technician. Within the BIM and drafting space, but I wouldn't run straight into a company and just say I'm changing everything and I'd say how do you currently operate? And this is how do you do things? Why do you find this way is better and try to understand the business and how it operates.

Dane Carroll

So and then once that trust is established, your contributions are hold more weight and they better received overall so.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, definitely. And another interesting aspect is the

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

nature of the people that sometime work in the digital engineering teams.

Dane Carroll

OK.

Andrea Ciaffi

They tend to be often introvert individuals that often don't develop

Dane Carroll

Hmm.

Andrea Ciaffi

relationships that can potentially. Boost their career an I just wanted to know from your point of view if you think that professional relationship can help shape your career and potentially like create new opportunities.

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I started when I was 17. Like I mentioned earlier on in the podcast. And then I had, I had no experience. So I came fresh out of school. The focus was on, like, on me was just fitting into the team and being a team player from the start.

Dane Carroll

So because I couldn't really offer any. Skills because I didn't have any skills yet besides just, I guess being nice and trying to fit in as a team and a part of the team. So just being easy to get along with and easy to teach was my approach.

Dane Carroll

I guess when I first started and I'll still sort of take that approach even even now. Like when I go into most teams and things like that. So but. But like I said, Curiosity has driven my development and like learning both internally and externally like you mentioned before, like we've my courses and things like that.

Dane Carroll

That's not. That's like the tip of the iceberg of what I've learned inside the job. So like even like I said, how my first four years was in an apprenticeship, that one day was at TAFE, but a lot of that like was just to add on to like what I already knew at work.

Dane Carroll

So a lot of it, 95% of is what you're learning is on the job, so. But I've built general relationships with my Co workers over the years, just mostly, and then one of those relationships like they continue to today, they're across Interstate overseas locally and these long term connections have sort of been a key.

Dane Carroll

Grow like career to my growth, to my career. So most of my opportunities have come from the people who I know and then who have trusted me so.

Andrea Ciaffi

And how do you maintain these relationships? Because one of the challenges is sometimes people move on, they join other companies or they move from one state to another.

Dane Carroll

Me.

Andrea Ciaffi

How do you keep these relationships?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. So I guess a lot of it was. So even building the relationship just from the start was, I guess asking questions not just about the project, the people that are working on the project. So about the person just shows interest in who they are.

Dane Carroll

So a lot, you spend a lot of these, a lot of your time with these people, like more, sometimes more so than your own family. So it's like typically most people spend at least 8-8 hours a day with these people. So it's like it's just little things, even in the coffee room or when you come in in the morning.

Dane Carroll

How was your weekend? Did you do anything interesting? And then you find most times you have a lot like there's something in common, even if this person's from a totally different background or culture, there's something that you'll find in common with that person, and that just combines the personal growth and then with your, if you have a sense of pride in your work.

Dane Carroll

You find that and like in terms of delivering quality work and your willingness, and if you've got a willingness to learn these qualities together, create a more enjoyable work environment. And I I found for me, me personally a successful long term career, so genuine, genuine curiosity.

Dane Carroll

And a good work ethic normally equals to like I guess good strong relationships and having a good strong reputation for your career.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it's amazing. And we are close to the end of the

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

episode, but before we finish, I want to talk about the future and if

Dane Carroll

Yeah.

Andrea Ciaffi

there is any emerging technology that excites you and what impact do you think this technology will have on on the industry?

Dane Carroll

It's at the moment obviously like AI is massive, but I try to tend to sort of not look too much into like the automation side of things. It's more for the I guess the repetitive tasks for my day-to-day activities.

Dane Carroll

So that might be like managing emails and things like that, or managing some of my workflows or anything that's sort of like filling out your title blocks and things automating. I think sometimes we become, like I said earlier on, especially with the people coming in industry become so heavily reliant on automation.

Dane Carroll

That you tend to forget about the fundamentals and unfortunately your skills are so heavily rely on automation that you don't have anything to build yourself up. You don't have any foundational fundamental understanding of how things are to go together so.

Dane Carroll

You still want to build up that cognitive thinking and to try to understand how things are, how things go together, and how is it built or how is it? How do we do this? And the critical thinking that actually can you can build your career on if we just walk straight into automation.

Dane Carroll

You I feel like you just are so heavily reliant on. Building your career around that, if that was to fall away or you or be removed, then you've kind of got no ground to stand on. So that kind of sort of thing is to build on top of what you already know.

Dane Carroll

It's just to take away the the repetitive tasks so that AOI is obviously a massive thing and the industry gets talked about a lot. But where? Where it's at in terms of, I guess within our industry it's more just to, I feel like it's more just to help with the repetitive tasks.

Dane Carroll

So it frees us up for the more important things like the, the the critical complex modelling and things like that. So and the critical issues to make sure like we're delivering good projects to the people on site so.

Dane Carroll

Like that, even the automation, it could just be a simple thing of doing model based checking and compliance and things like that to make sure that all your data is in there and it's compliant with the with the current clients for state government or whatever it is.

Dane Carroll

So it's just freeing up that the things that take hours and hours. To do it within a few minutes, whereas the critical things that you can't really replace AI is like the problem solving in terms of like complex geometry. Sometimes you need that personal touch and experience that we're not there yet.

Dane Carroll

Unfortunately like to create a bridge like that. But yeah, it's that's probably something that I'm more focused on at the moment. How can we? Remove the mundane task.

Andrea Ciaffi

Yeah, it will take some time before the AI can actually design A bridge where we can drive on.

Dane Carroll

Yeah, one day.

Andrea Ciaffi

If you could give it one piece of advice to a young drafter or starting today, what would that be?

Dane Carroll

Yeah. Yeah, it's quite simple. I think like someone that's coming into the industry, I wouldn't get too caught up on the softwares and the industry like it can become pretty overwhelming. I talk to a lot of young people coming into the industry and.

Dane Carroll

Like I said mentioned before on LinkedIn you see the end product, but these people sometimes these are like projects that are created over years or these are people that have got 20-30 years experience. So and you don't quite see it.

Dane Carroll

All you're seeing is a snippet of the end result of that 30 years and then the year like the 30 years experience and all the troubleshooting they've had to go through. And then that project that could have taken. In a year or whatever you see in the very end product, so it can be quite overwhelming and thinking I've got a long way to go.

Dane Carroll

Do I get there, but just focus on being doing the fundamentals right? So being a passionate, being passionate about your job, making sure I think you enjoy your job is a massive thing. Because you're gonna be doing it for a long time, so that's always been stuck in my head.

Dane Carroll

Make sure you enjoy what you're doing and build genuine relationships. Like I said, you're gonna be working with these people every day for a long time. Whether or not you're at. It's a small industry. So. No, it does feel large, but a lot of people.

Dane Carroll

You might leave a company you find yourself working with similar people that you worked with before. Like I said, don't get overwhelmed by the the industry and or the tech that's always going to be developing. That's always going to be changing. So whether or not you're coming in now or you're, you're in it now like myself and you.

Dane Carroll

It's always changing. So and like I said, just master the fundamentals before just trying to take shortcuts. I think getting Good base foundation and building on top of that. Take your time. Careers are built slowly. They're not just build off. You know, one day or two days, it's unfortunately with the social media and stuff, everything feels like it's gonna happen now, but it's not the reality.

Dane Carroll

We're all we're all. Got careers that we've built slightly over time and experience comes with time, so.

Andrea Ciaffi

And definitely and thank you very much. Then for your time and we are at the end